Jump to content
Fly Tying
JoeBillingsley

Copper John's Effectiveness?

Recommended Posts

Do you think the success of the Copper John is due to the suggestive look of it and its flash or the fact that it is much heavier than most flies and gets down to where the fish are better than others? Would a lot of other nymph patterns be just as effective if they were as heavy and got as deep? I know a lot of you haven't been as successful with them as I and others have been, but you have to admit they do catch fish. It's probably been my most successful fly over the past few years.

 

Joe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think its because of the flash and its ability to catch the fishes eye quickly.I dont fish alot of trout so i cant comment on the Copper Johns effect on them but i have fished similar looking flies without the copper flash while panfishing and at times when i get no bites i switch to the Copper John and catch plenty fish.I think the flash is like a magnet to fish.Even if they dont take the fly they still cant resist coming in closer for a look.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is a combination of both weight and flash. The copper john has just flash to keep a fish's attention without scaring it a away and just enough wieght to get it down to where fish are feeding. It is my favorite fly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it's the flash, mostly.

It could be the depth, but a lot of nymph patterns are leaded enough to get down there, too.

 

My vote for flash is because of the "brassie". I've found it to be as effective (well, more so, since it's what I tie on).

Of course, I am fishing for bream, not trout, and I am not as concerned with depth as most of my fishing is in less than 5 feet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i have yet to catch a trout on a copper john and dont foresee myself wasting hooks, beads, wire etc tying them up

 

just no luck with them at all

 

i would fish a pheasant tail or hares ear with added split shot to the leader first

 

just my experience, yours WILL be different

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CJ's rocked for me last season in my local Maine stream. Red and chartreuse , 18's and 20's. My go-to is usually bead-head Hare's Ear, but the CJ out performed them in this particular stream. I fished them with and without extra weight, depending on conditions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is a combination of flash and weight, both of which can be very helpful on any given day. I don't tie the exact CJ as it have to many steps. But I tie a similar simpler fly with wire wrap in multiple colors, black tungsten bead and a small bit of dubbing with flash surrounding the bead to hide the bead and give it some movement and a pheasant for tail. It sinks like a rock and is bright for sure and it has done me well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Weight. Nothing gets deep faster than a Copper John, and stays there. Even when it is not working, I often leave it on just to get my dropper deeper and keep it there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A copper john is one of my best flies for trout. I also tie them in blue, red, green and pink; mostly on a size 16 or 18.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are two concepts that I teach that every nympher should know. The first concept is "Effective Drift Length (EDL)."

We all unconsciously apply this concept when we dry fly fish. Because we can see where the rise is when dry fly fishing, we instinctively know that the fly must be in the right current seam, on (adult) or in (emerger) the surface film, AND drifting drag free. Only when all of those three things occur do we have a chance of catching the fish.

The identical principal applies when we are nymphing. The fly must not only be in the correct current seam laterally (1) but vertically (2) in depth as well, and the must be as drag free (3) as possible. Only when these three criteria of lateral and vertical location and drift speed are correct is the drift most effective in catching fish. The fishing method that gives keeps the fly at the correct location at the correct drift speed for the longest length has the best "Effective Drift Length."

The Copper John sinks fast so it gets to the bottom where the trout are. However, does it also drift drag free and more importantly does it have the buoyancy of the natural nymph? It obviously does not have neutral buoyancy, therefore it cannot act like a natural when it gets to the correct depth.

The success of the Copper John is because of a very fast sink rate that places it into the correct zone. I

The second concept is “Effective Natural Drift (END).” Does the fly drift like a natural nymph or pupa? My view is that unweighted nymphs drift more naturally. My belief is that you only weight the nymph if it adds to the natural action or it does not detract from a natural behavior. Otherwise I weight the leader.

I have had more success by using split shot to get a fast sink rate and then a more natural drifting fly like a pheasant tail or a flashback PT or lighting bug if flash is needed.

Take a look at this video at 1 min 10 seconds. There is a drifting stone fly nymph and imagine a heavy bead headed stone fly pattern or a copper john. It cannot possibly act like the natural.

"The nymph is a weak swimmer and when subjected to the current. it become a weightless and utterly helpless creature."

To fish a nymph effectively you must have BOTH and effective drift length AND an effective natural drift. The Copper John results in a long effective drift length but it gives a very poor effective natural drift. So I use weight on the leader with unweighted nymphs.

The best time to use a Copper John is in turbulent flows with fast water over a rocky bottom. When there is turbulent flow at the bottom, nymphs get tossed around and the fish have less time to examine the fly AND they have a harder time detecting that the fly is not drifting exactly with the flow.

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=56175&page=4&do=findComment&comment=610230

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SIlver,

Perhaps the Copper John isn't about the EDL at all.

Maybe it looks more like the nymph on the bottom, rather than the helpless and tumbling loose bug. If fish only ate the helpless, drifting ones, I'd think it would get very hungry. I'd bet the majority of the fish's intake is from those bugs crawling along the bottom. No?

 

The flash catches the fishes eye, draws it in. But the bug on the bottom might be the trigger.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have fished the CJ effectively in many water both still water and fast water. In still water I have found that letting it get to the bottom and giving it a bit of action triggers strikes. So, I am going to agree with mikechell I think it is as effective as a bug on the bottom as a drifting one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect it's (1) readily available in shops, (2) for a lot of newbies helps them get a nymph down fast - maybe for the first time, and (3) all that scientific stuff silver said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion its usefulness (as said before) lies in the fact that it gets down there where the fish are and because its there they taste it and get stuck. I like the copper John not because it is really effective because it is not (IMO) but because it is really heavy and it gets a fish to look then when they refuse the Copper J they have the chance to check out the fly I trail off of it. I never fish the copper john by it self, always with a trailer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to "The Little Red Book of Fly Fishing", John Barr designed the fly so that it was sure to sink. By his own admission, this fly was "meant to be an anchor that looked like an insect...sort of". So at least we can say that Barr's emphasis was getting the fly to sink quickly. I've fished the CJ extensively at my local stream. In fact, at one time, it was clearly my "go to" fly. However, in more recent years, its effectiveness has dropped off significantly. Maybe it's because other angler use it or similar flies. All I know for sure is that it's not as productive as it once was on my home water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...