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Fluorocarbon???


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12 replies to this topic

#1 denduke

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:13 PM

Been making up some heavy leaders and having problems. Joining 50# to 30# using all kinda knots from perfection loop, Surgeons loops and blood knots, Surgeons, double Uni.... Using a spring scale up to 40# I can't get any better results than 18-20# for brakes. Not only that once you stretch/ tension this "100%Fluro" Trylene it gets weak and further knots 4" from the brake which appears slightly cork screws are junk. Only way I got 28# joining 30 to 50 braking point was back to mono...
Looks like gonna have to use mono down to the bite tippet(50#-80#) of the fluorocarbon with loop and double figure 8 at the fly. Never realized how this flouro is till pulled it with a scale. Nice that you can pull it hard and it straitens out nicely but seems any sever pull near its breaking strength weakens it the next time you pull. I don't think I've been getting but 50% or less on braking strength on my trout stuff cuz I never checked the pull...
WTF!!!!!? Need help....
Is the fluro/copolymer stuff I see better with knots and still invisible in water?

Navigating the site, mobile, has become really slow on top of other frustrations. Only forum slow. Anybody else?
If you wanta sing the blues, you gotta pay your dues, and you know it don't come easy...RS
Due to severe budget cuts and economic down turn the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off...

#2 chugbug27

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 09:56 PM

Site's sow here lately, too. Flouro is unpredictable to me re breaking off, but that's just on the small stuff (5x-7x). Sometimes it seems to hold and fish great, other times the fly breaks off too easy, or even just falls off from a failed knot. Much less predictable than non-floro, for me at least, but I still use it on calm water almost always cause it's invisible. Another real plus for me re floro is how easy it is to handle on small flies to get in eye and tie knots... But the breaking outweighs that for me, really I use it just cause it hides.
cb27

#3 tjm

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:05 PM

After ten minutes this thread is still loading, today is first time site has been this slow for me. Most common knots only produce 50% strength on mono. I haven't used the Fluoro, but doubt it is any different. Search something like "fish line knot strength" there are some studies out there and descriptions of improvements to knots.



#4 vicente

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:23 PM

site has been very slow on my android with firefox, just started up my laptop and it seems to be working at normal speed on this. 



#5 mikechell

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Posted 09 March 2018 - 11:36 PM

Site didn't even load for me, until about 10 minutes ago.  Seems to be working fine now.

 

I've never liked Floro ... the "invisible" part doesn't make it worth the "I hate this stuff" part.  Good luck getting any good results with it.


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#6 Bimini15

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 06:38 AM

Site was slow last night for me too. My iPad is getting old and slow, but other sites loaded as usual.
Seems better this morning...

Fluoro is stiffer than mono, so, for me, it has always been a little bit more difficult to get a nice streamlined knot. Specially in the larger 30-40lbs. sizes I use. But I have not had failures.
Are you lubricating the knots before you pull them tight?
Bimini15

#7 Capt Bob LeMay

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 08:51 AM

I use a bunch of fluorocarbon - for leaders mostly, and in fly fishing that means mostly bite tippets (also called shock tippets by some...) - and it has a few different characteristics compared to mono... I'll try to do a short tutorial to pass on what I've learned... I routinely keep 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, and 80lb leader spools of fluoro on my skiff - and the exact same sizes in my shop since rigging leaders on the water is the last thing I want to be doing... 

 

Item#1... Once folks became interested in fluoro... manufacturers soon learned to label anything they could as "fluoro" , son of fluoro, might be related to fluoro, once dated fluoro... In short I avoid any fishing lines labeled as fluorocarbon and only use fluorocarbon leader material, period - and I'm very skeptical of most so-called fluorocarbon fly leaders since I've found them to be less than satisfactory, mostly.  I'm also skeptical of leader material sold by fly outfits since I've actually had in my hands stuff that was obviously mis-labeled (might have been fluorocarbon leader material - but if it's labeled as 80lb - but only has the diameter of known 60lb fluoro..). you get the feeling that someone isn't exactly being honest (and that was from a big name fly outfit....).  The best fluorocarbon leader material I've found is Seaguar blue label (and yes, it's expensive) - a very good alternative at around half the price (per yard...) is Ande Fluorocarbon leader material and that's my daily user...

 

There are some very noticeable differences between mono and fluoro.... Mono is what we all used before fluoro came along and all of the knots you need are well identified and can be found in books or on-line tutorials -not so with fluoro (at least that's been my experience...). Fluorocarbon is advertised as being "invisible in water" - and it might be that -but that's not the reason that I use it...  The stuff is just harder than mono - and that means I can use a bit lighter leader and get pretty much the same abrasion resistance as heavier mono.... Fluoro also lacks "memory" (the tendency to go back into coils when it's not under tension - and that one characteristic for a fly angler, mono turning into a "slinky" when not under tension, makes fluorocarbon outstanding in my opinion.  I simply tie up a fly leader with fluoro, anchor the fly end on something -then pull hard and hold it there for a moment with a resulting perfectly straight leader (at least the fluorocarbon part..).  Match that fluoro bite tippet to leader material like Mason Hard Monofilament and both will straighten up with the same pull (and with an 80lb bite tippet and a 20lb leader - that's an important benefit...).  As a side note, most have seen those old fly stretchers that were specifically designed to take the kinks and curls out of heavy mono bite tippets... Once you make the switch to fluoro you'll never need a stretcher again.... One last difference between mono and fluoro is that fluoro sinks faster than mono (and I do know some guys rig popping bugs with mono instead of fluorocarbon leaders for just that reason.  Me, I've never had the slightest problem fishing poppers with a fluoro leader - but I'm fishing the salt where movement (even the slightest movement) draws strikes all day long under the right conditions.  I find the slightly quicker sink rate of fluoro beneficial when making leaders for bonefish or permit (since those guys want their flies on the bottom - all day long...

 

Now for the knots and connections needed when working with fluoro... Most of the knots for mono simply don't work as well with fluorocarbon since fluoro is stiffer and takes more effort to tighten properly... An example is the improved clinch knot - if you try one with fluorocarbon you won't be able to cinch it down properly and the knot will fail under a load... Tie that same five turn clinch knot without "improving" it and it will work just fine with fluoro... Blood knots will work - but only for fluoro to fluoro connections, don't try one when joining fluoro to mono since they won't work very well unless you specifically use fewer turns of fluoro compared to the mono side (and here you'll have to experiment a bit to get it right).  I find that the Slim Beauty works quite well when the fluoro is the heavier of the two lines... Lastly the knot that will work every time when joining fluoro to fluoro or fluoro to mono is simply the uni to uni connection (as long as you vary the number of turns on each side -with the heavier side getting fewer turns - say three turns of 40lb fluoro to seven turns of 20lb mono...

 

My standard heavy bite tippet to much lighter mono (say 80lb fluoro to 20lb mono) will either be with a Slim Beauty, a Hufnagel (I won't try to explain a Hufnagel here -but it's probably the go to connection for big tarpon leaders...), or a uni to uni knot.  For connecting the fly or lure to a fluorocarbon leader I usually use an improved Homer Rhode loop knot (when a loop is in order) or a simply five turn clinch knot when I don't want the fly to swing in a loop...

 

Lastly, for those building their own leaders from scratch - I hardly ever use any leader that's all fluorocarbon but would never mix mono and fluoro for the tapered portion of the leader since the two materials have different characteristics... Instead for something like bonefish I'll tie up a seven foot tapered leader entirely of fluorocarbon then tie a surgeon's loop in the heavy end... That loop will be looped onto a four or five foot butt section that's just monofilament spliced to the end of my fly line permanently... that seven foot section would be 3 feet 30lb, 2 feet of 20lb, then 2 feet of whatever final taper (usually 10lb) and that's looped onto that four or five foot butt section of 40lb mono for an overall 11 or 12 foot leader.

 

Hope this helps.  Iv'e only scratched the surface here about how to use fluoro.  I also use it on all my lure casting gear (spin or plug casting) set up as follows...  First every rod has a Bimini Twist tied into the last three feet of line (this doubles the line so your 10lb line now has a 20lb breaking strength for the three foot terminal end...).  That doubled line is then attached to a short two to three foot leader of fluorocarbon which the lure is attached to... For instance the lightest spinning out fit on my skiff has only 10lb braid - that doubled 10lb is attached to a 30lb leader, with 20lb braid - I'm attaching the doubled line to a 40lb leader - you get the idea... As the leader shows the slightest fray or abrasion - it's cut back and re-tied until there's not enough left that's usable - then a new fluoro leader will replace it...


Tight lines Bob LeMay (954) 435-5666

#8 ben bell

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 09:32 AM

really good stuff Capt. Bob..Thanks..

#9 vicrider

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 10:52 AM

Cap't Bob, you do spend a lot of time doing knots and leaders for your rigging. Makes sweetwater gear fishing or fly fishing simple by comparison. One thing I've also grown to depend on over the years is the simple Uni knot. Not the strongest by far but for it's consistent and I don't break one testing and have to retie like I have with some other knots. And for joining leader sections I use the blood knot  when it is right for the type and sizes of line but use the uni to uni knot connection when blood knot is not best, like differing weights past the blood knots ability. I have tied many, many leaders over the years but now have become profoundly lazy and simply used furled with a hunk of mono or flouro or buy a tapered leader 7' or so down to 4x, put a ring on the end of that, than tippet from there. When I do tie leaders with heavy butt sections for bass bugs I put one more wrap in the lighter leader blood knot until we get to fairly equal sections.



#10 Capt Bob LeMay

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 12:50 PM

Yesterday I did some prep work for a five day booking starting tomorrow - or should I say night booking since we're only going five hours per night -targeting small tarpon on fly.  My angler belongs to a fishing club that specifies that he can only use 12lb tippet in the fly category... so I did ten leaders yesterday from 12 to 40lb... that's 12lb tippet joined to 40lb fluoro bite tippet.... Since we're using relatively light leaders (that 12lb breaking tippet is a fair amount lighter than our usual 20lb gear) I carefully did two bimini twists to start with - one at each end with an actual tippet length in between the two doubled lines of about 20"  (remember that fly line and backing have no stretch to speak of so your leader is the only "cushion" you can count on.  I'd have done a 24 to 26" tippet with 20lb leader...  Then you take one of the doubled line ends and knot it into a surgeon's loop with doubled line in the loop....  Lastly with a hufnagel I attached a 24" section of 40lb fluorocarbon leader (a doubled length of bite tippet since we're going to attach a second leader to the remaining end of the bite tippet.  Now you actually have a leader pair with a loop on each end that will be looped onto another leader pair, etc.  in a continuous chain of leaders that are all wound onto an empty spool... In use I'll pull off the top pair, cut the bite tippet in two to provide the single leader I want - the remainder will get used, one leader at a time, as needed.. Here are a few pics showing some of the knots....

3UiTmwv.jpg

The looped end that will be attached to the loop on your butt section, note the bimini showing so that your surgeon's loop is made from doubled line (much less likely to wear through in a long fight than a single strand loop...).

ZpVMh65.jpg

various leader spools marked to show tippet size with shock (or bite) tippet ends - all in a continuous chain of looped together leader pairs - ready to use and much, much more convenient to use on the water than having to tie up a new leader after every bite - or every fly change...

 

By the way these photos were used some years ago for a short piece I did for a magazine... Nowadays magazines rarely ever buy articles from someone that's not an in-house employee.   The magazines remaining simply can't afford to as they slowly fade away...


Tight lines Bob LeMay (954) 435-5666

#11 denduke

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Posted 10 March 2018 - 02:31 PM

Appreciate the help Capt. I got the 80 mono double surgeon loops at the fly, for now, and at the 30 then blood knotted the 30 to the 50 fluro at the fly line end and every time I pulled the the 30 would break at 22# in the run not in the knots... so this 30# trilene 30# fluro is actually 22#. Ain't that special. Got the 80 off a 6/0 Penn boat rod no have 80 fluro yet. Big stuff not the problem. Problem is with 30, 20 holding the manuf. rating. Gotta use 20 to brake at 10 not a happy camper... The other puzzle is the fluro seems to weaken every time you load it. Biminis gonna be a tough learnig curve....the double, double Surgeons is great tip too!
If you wanta sing the blues, you gotta pay your dues, and you know it don't come easy...RS
Due to severe budget cuts and economic down turn the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off...

#12 fishinguy

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 11:06 AM

Thicker to thinner line I like an improved Albright knot. Seguar is the only flourocarbon that has provided performance I like (sorry, these are recommendations based on spin gear tackle. I just use packages tapered leaders for fly fishing.)

#13 denduke

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 06:10 PM

Gonna try the Alberto? The man problem is attaching the 20# to the 80 bite tippet and to the 50 or 40 from fly line. So far some success with the Slim Beauty knots. Prolly stay with mono down to the fluoro bite tippet and for smaller fish, 12,15 fluro. Do the double up Surgeon loop and change for whatever at that point in fluro...Gonna make some end tippets with 9-10" of lite wire if toothy stuff. Quick change at loop. Been testing stuff with spring scale and took the 12wt hooked to 15# bucket to get the feel for it. Been practicing back casts and able to shoot 10-15' into backing casting the whole 90' flyline in some good windy conditions. Gonna have to speed up my learning curve!
http://www.floridasp.../tarpon-on-fly/

IMG_1539.jpg
Got the bucket of water, 15#, lifted with the 12wt....
IMG_3104.png
If you wanta sing the blues, you gotta pay your dues, and you know it don't come easy...RS
Due to severe budget cuts and economic down turn the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off...