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terp

Silk Options For Soft Hackles -- Post-Pearsall

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I posted this on a thread from 2020 with no responses, so I'm re-posting here.  Thanks for any help/advice.

 

In lieu of discontinued Pearsall's Gossamer silk, I bought 54 Dean Street's Ephemera and I find that it breaks too easily when tying (even when changing bobbins).  Plus the flies are shredded after 1-2 fish.  Adding resin changes the color and probably stymies the translucency when the fly is wet.  It also seaps backwards into the entire body when applied to head in any volume.  I may need to switch to old fashioned lacquer.

Pearsall's almost never broke, and even after 10 fish there's just a little fuzz on the silk.  Pearsall's is a bit thicker, but I also I suspect it may have been manfucatured/twisted in a manner creating more durability.  To test this I'm going to twist the Ephemera and see if this changes matters, and whether it still lays flat enough.

I'm curious if anyone else has had this experience with Ephemera, and whether YLI, Morus or Semperfli are any better in this regard.  Bob Smith, soft hackle guru, suggests YLI to match the Persall's shades, but re: Semperfli Pure Silk says he "wouldn't touch it with a barge pole."  There's an interesting discussion here: https://www.flyfishing.co.uk/threads/robert-smith-what-thread.389379/

This guy compares YLI to Pearsall's shades, and says they have a thicker diameter (which may help with strength? -- but Bob Smith says YLI #100 Silk Threads are the same diameter as Pearsalls): https://wiflyfisher.com/YLI-Silk-Thread-Review.asp#:~:text=Although YLI silk thread is,see in my photos below.  Ephemera 

Morus can be bought here (listed as their only US "stockist" -- https://morus-silk.com/stockists/?v=79cba1185463😞https://www.gunpowdercustomtackle.com/product-page/morus-silk-superfine .  Most colors are sold out and it's $8.25/spool for what looks like the small Pearsall's sized spool.

Semperfli has a good story here, but I'm nervous about Bob's comment above: https://semperfli.us/shades-of-silk-semperfli-pure-silks-released/

Then there's Kimono.

So happy I've found a new OCD object with silk threads.  In the back of my head I know "the fish don't care" but I guess I care more than they do.  I know real silk is semi-translucent when wet, so that's what I'm hanging my hat on to propel my newfound silk thread obsession.  Otherwise I realize I could just use any thread.  

 

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 For 30 years, I have been tying mine with rayon floss.  About 10 years ago I started using Gutermann Bulky nylon.  This is a thick polyester thread that lays flat like floss and works just fine for me.  I am not trying to impress anyone, I tie flies simply for the fish, and they don't care one way or the other.  

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I responded to that thread, first post on the second page, but I'll expand here.  

I have not tied with 54 Dean St, Ephemera, Semperfli, Morus, or YLI.  Having come to tying with silk after Pearsall's demise, my experience with it is limited to a few spools I have picked up on the cheap.  So my opinion may not be very helpful.  

I use Kimono silk thread.   I like it.  Its relatively inexpensive, I don't have a problem bending my cheap bobbin holders to fit it's larger spools. 

I have not noticed a problem with it being weak or getting shredded after one or two fish.  I have used Corticelli silk thread in size A (very thick compared to the Kimono and Pearsall's I have) for soft hackle bodies, and it does seem to get shredded much faster than the thinner thread, so that may be the problem with the 54 Dean St.   Cording it up is a good idea for the body, it gives a nice segmentation, but you'll need to unwind it again to avoid a big ugly head, in my experience.  

I don't believe the trout are rejecting my flies because the Kimono colors are not an exact match to Pearsall's colors.  I highly doubt a spool of Pearsall's 6A  produced in the 50's or 60's would match a spool of 6A produced in the 90's any better or worse than the same color in some of the brands you mentioned, but I could be wrong.   

I agree with you about the resin, you may be better off using a traditional wax on the thread, but that may alter the color also.  For the most part, I stopped using head cement et al on silk threads because I didn't like the way it changed the thread color.

Others are no doubt are better read on the subject than I am, but in my limited reading in the older books about tying traditional soft hackles, I find no mention of using a specific brand, only silk thread or silk floss.  It's not until the mid 1900's and later that Pearsall's starts to get bandied about as the traditional choice for traditional soft hackles - so I don't necessarily buy the whole Pearsall's mystique.   

If you're on a mission, buy a bobbin of each brand in your favorite color to sate your curiosity.  Maybe you'll come up with different conclusions than those in the links you posted.  I'd be happy to send you a bit of the different Kimono colors I have to feed that OCD.  

The fish won't care, as everybody says, but this is a hobby and we can do whatever makes it more enjoyable for us.    

 

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When I tie traditional soft hackles for trout, I use floss.  Basically, I wrap the shank with white thread then the floss over it.  Since the floss becomes translucent when wet or if coated with a thin UV resin(for durability) I get the true color of the floss.  If I'm feeling non-traditional I may wrap the shank in pearl thread, silver or gold and to add a bit of sparkle to the fly.   If I'm tying larger soft hackles for panfish or bass(size 6 and size 4)  I have a lot of other options for the body.

Some bass soft hackles

P8210536.JPG.4e84b63e7d08cbfb286689f89174fff6.JPG

P8210540 (2).JPG

P8210538 (2).JPG

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Has anyone compared YLI 100 wt to 50 wt?  I am on the silk thread soft hackle train, but for now I have enough Persalls in three colors, but am going to branch out with different colors.  I bought a spool of silk floss from France, but it requires extra steps to tie in and thread change to get a decent head.  I was considering YLI but unsure of size.

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There's a lot of compare contrast info on the classic fly rod site. The bamboo guys have a similar issue to the soft hackle guys.

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Hey hey I resemble that remark !🙂
 

Go with Morus thread if looking to get as close to Pearsalls.  I too do not lacquer the head as it

changes the thread color. Give the thread at the head a swipe of wax.

98A6CF7A-0C4D-41D2-A78F-AD15C02AEBF0.jpeg

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20 hours ago, DarrellP said:

Has anyone compared YLI 100 wt to 50 wt?   .....     I was considering YLI but unsure of size.

Understanding Thread Weight

A smaller weight number indicates a heavier thread. The weight of a thread is actually a length measurement. Dividing the length of thread by a set weight derives the exact measurement of a thread weight. A thread is labeled 40 wt. when 40 kilometers of that thread weighs 1 kilogram. A 30 wt. thread is heavier because it takes only 30 kilometers of thread to weigh one kilogram.

So, 50wt should be twice as thick as 100wt, all things being equal.  

See the posts by Old Hat in here, he compares YLI 100 to other silk threads.  I would think YLI 50 would be too thick form most soft hackled flies.   

 

 

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3 hours ago, niveker said:

Understanding Thread Weight

A smaller weight number indicates a heavier thread. The weight of a thread is actually a length measurement. Dividing the length of thread by a set weight derives the exact measurement of a thread weight. A thread is labeled 40 wt. when 40 kilometers of that thread weighs 1 kilogram. A 30 wt. thread is heavier because it takes only 30 kilometers of thread to weigh one kilogram.

So, 50wt should be twice as thick as 100wt, all things being equal.  

See the posts by Old Hat in here, he compares YLI 100 to other silk threads.  I would think YLI 50 would be too thick form most soft hackled flies.   

 

 

Good info thanks @niveker@DarrellP, this might be a reason for your confusion. Aside from the useless "/0" measuring system a lot of threads are now listed as denier, UTC being one.  That makes things even more confusing because denier is the exact opposite of the thread weight in terms of the "number". The higher the denier the heavier the thread is.

A 30-wt. thread is a “heavier” thread, meaning a thicker cross section, because a much shorter thread weighs the same as the 40 wt. In length measurements, higher numbers reflect thicker or heavier threads. “Denier” refers to the weight in grams of 9000 meters of thread.   

Thread sizes are most often labeled using an archaic system left over from the days when silk thread was measured in zeros. For example, 000 is 3/0. The more zeros, the thinner the thread. The problem is that this “zero” measurement system doesn’t relate to any practical form of measurement and one company’s 6/0 may be smaller than another’s 8/0. A more accurate measurement of both thread diameter and breaking strength is denier. This is the textile industry standard. A denier equals the gram weight of 9,000 meters of thread.

IMHO, some standardization would be nice. It can be tough comparing "/0" to denier to wt.  In my experience 8/0 and 70 denier threads are usually pretty close to each other.  YMMV.

[edit] I've been using Morus, 54 Dean St., Semperfli and of course Pearsall's.  Depends on what color I want to use and what color thread I have in whichever brand I have. [/edit]

 

 

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26 minutes ago, DarrellP said:

@Sandan, thanks for clarifying.  I had never encountered 50 weight  or 100 weight thread before.

Same here. And since I'm kinda bored here at work this morning. I found this. It's pretty interesting.

Thread weight

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Thanks, everyone. Turns out my Ephemera spool was just one bad spool out of the batch.  Of course it was the orange one -- arguably the most important color, and the only one I had used to that point.  I tried the other colors and they dont' have the same problem. I'll ask for a replacement for the one spool that was bad.  Other than that, I'm satisfied with Ephemera.  I've also bought some YLI and Kimono and when I have a better grasp of each I'll write a little bit more here.  I literally spend almost the entire weekend tying flies.  It was great.

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On 7/14/2022 at 2:16 PM, Moshup said:

Go with Morus thread if looking to get as close to Pearsalls. .

 

Moshup, I looked at Morus and it was pretty pricy and not availabe in US (well, most colors were out of stock).  Can you tell me where you got yours?  Thanks.

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7 hours ago, terp said:

one bad spool out of the batch.

I've had that happen with regular tying thread.  Glad you got it figured out.  

Lets see some of week-end flies.

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