Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 Actually, I didn't notice Rockworm had already weighed in and, if I had, I might have worded my comments a little differently, sorry! Anyway, I very highly respect both Bruce's and Rockworm's opinions on technique and with both weighing in on the side of laying down a thread base before spinning, there's no question I will definitely have to revisit and re-evaluate this topic in my own tying. Thanks guys! -- Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smalliestalker 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 I always lay down a thread base as well...if you're using GSP spinning over it isn't a problem....Stacking on a base is never an issue...It adds so much more stability and durability to the fly..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChuckingFluff 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 Chucking Fluff I just finished my deer hair spinning class, on the first night we were told to spin on bare hook only. The next two classes we were told to lay down thread first and on one fly we even built a platform with thread and mono to spin half colors top and bottom. I'd say it is anybody's guess. LOL! If you're talking about one color on top and another on the bottom, you must be referring to stacking rather than spinning. Spinning is where you spin a clump of hair so that it evenly distributes all the way around the hook (which is why you can't achieve different colors on top and bottom through spinning alone). Anyway, I prefer to spin on a bare hook because (i) it is easier to do so since a bare hook is more slippery and (ii) I haven't particularly experienced any problems with the bottom/head/whatever not being stable and sliding around the hook later. I mean, I have noticed it to some degree but not enough for me to change how I tie. I pack the crap out of each section of hair all the way up to the hook eye with multiple thread wraps and half-hitches in between so I shouldn't expect a lot of movement later. Even less if you're one of those that also likes to add a touch of superglue after each section. That said, if you prefer to work with really big bundles of hair, I could see where you might have a stability problem later on. In that case, a thread base is probably advisable, although I personally don't spin really big bundles at a time so, again, I don't lay down a thread base. I don't think there's a right or wrong here, mostly preference, as you noted. I think the tradeoff involved here is ease of spinning vs. stability, along with the recognition there are other factors that may affect stability as well -- i.e., how securely you wrap, tie off, pack, and perhaps glue each section of hair. -- Mike Thanks Mike, Pat, Paul, Bruce and everyone else. When I spin I've been using a bare hook but if I'm stacking I lay down a base first. The results have been good and my biggest problem that will correct it's self in time is that I sometime trap some hair from the previous wrap in the new one. Not a big deal and it doesn't happen all the time. My small deer hair stuff has been good for a while now I'm just working out the bigger stuff; if I can learn how to trim properly I'd be a rock star. Ian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatorjoe 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 I learned how to spin at a demo given locally by a guy named Tom Ziegler. He does amazing work and ties in a different manner than most. I don't even know how to explain it, but it's not just wrap wrap pull like a lot if guys spin. It takes a little longer but the results are an amazing durable fly. He told us he only spins on bare hooks. My question is, how do you pack tightly with a thread base? I use a brassie tool and it'll cut thread like crazy, so you have to pack before you bring the thread forward for the next bunch. And who knows, maybe I'm doing it totally wrong, which is possible. But I learned from a guy who is great at his art and my flies come out tightly packed and durable so I won't change. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smalliestalker 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 When you lay down a thread base...you stack the hair on top of it....so when you go to pack it, the thread is already under the hair...your brassie packer will be on bare hook, pack the hair, then bring your thread wraps forward again....I even go so far as to lay a couple of extra wraps, put the packer on the hook, and pack those wraps into the hair as well.....wrap forward, then stack your next chunk of hair....if you're using GSP I doubt you're going to cut through it with a packer....If you're satisfied with your results, then there is no reason to change anyway....there is more then one way to skin a cat.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatorjoe 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2010 Wow, sometimes I type stuff and come across as a jerk. I wasn't trying to. I do use GSP and I have cut it with the hair packer before. Honestly I hate GSP. I find it incredibly hard to work with. I still use it but I have considered switching to Kevlar. I know most say not to use Kevlar for deer hair, but the guy I learned from uses that and only that. I do realize there's more than one way to skin a cat. (Is there really? Isn't skinning animals a pretty universal thing? Lol). And to each their own. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
smalliestalker 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 I wonder if cat hair would make good flies?????????????????here kitty kitty...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatorjoe 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 I wonder if cat hair would make good flies?????????????????here kitty kitty...... I work with dogs and I tied a few flies with hair from the groomers. Goldendoodle undercoat is the best posting material I've ever used. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
troutbuster 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 Hi Guys, There already are a couple of opinions, but I'd like to write down what works for me. what I usually do is make the collar of the fly, say the first piece of hair tied on a thread base (wich is actually a material/thread base) from then on I tie my deerhair on a bare hookshank, I don't do a lot of spinning, just one pencil on the bottom (usually white) , if you give two wraps you can flip it over to the underside. from there I stack a few colors on top, bring the thread forward, two wraps, pack, and continue a new pencil on the underside. I am kind of self taught, and this video really helped me, It's a Ken bohannon video, and also the cutting is something you have to see on this one hope this helps, ~ floris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riffleriversteelheadslayer 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 I hear everyone talking about using GSP or Kevlar but I can tell you I have used GSP but I still like the old fashioned 140 denier thread the best as for Kevlar I don't like it at all as it is to easy to cut through the hair Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hairstacker 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 floris, very nice! -- Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
troutbuster 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 Hi Paul, this is off course my own opinion, (For What It's Worth) as for kevlar, and other threats than GSP, they are usually either to weak or too bulkey. What you can try to do with GSP (when having trouble with cutting) is to build up tension slowly, usually when you build up tension slowly you won't have the trouble of cutting the material, you will even be surprised how much tension you can build up (I can even break my thread without cutting the hair (WAPSI 100 denier). on the other hand, when you build up tension too fast you will be surprised how little you will need to cut the hair. a quick jerk will give you a spray of hair in the air :) I'd say give it a try ~ floris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
troutbuster 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 Hey Mike, Thanks, ~ floris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stippled Popper 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 I wonder if cat hair would make good flies?????????????????here kitty kitty...... :bugeyes: After my wife's evil cat Duchess, the attack cat died, both my wife and I have developed an allergy to cats. Being around them for any length of time blocks our sinus's, bothers our eyes and also causes my wife other problems. Please!!! could the use of cat hair be banned from all public tying applications. :wallbash: Not wishing to be unreasonable about this, I am willing to make an exception for those who willingly restrict any such flies strictly for their own use. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riffleriversteelheadslayer 0 Report post Posted March 6, 2010 Hi Paul, this is off course my own opinion, (For What It's Worth) as for kevlar, and other threats than GSP, they are usually either to weak or too bulkey. What you can try to do with GSP (when having trouble with cutting) is to build up tension slowly, usually when you build up tension slowly you won't have the trouble of cutting the material, you will even be surprised how much tension you can build up (I can even break my thread without cutting the hair (WAPSI 100 denier). on the other hand, when you build up tension too fast you will be surprised how little you will need to cut the hair. a quick jerk will give you a spray of hair in the air :) I'd say give it a try ~ floris I have no problems with the GSP its the Kevlar I don't like GSP is great but my personal prefrence is the regular 140 denier by danville and I think I am fairly proficiant of a deer hair tier here is one of my patterns http://www.flytyingforum.com/pattern6577.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites