Fly Line question ?

[perchjerker 0]

Incidentally, as a teenager in the late 40's and early 50's, I used to take a pump .22 rifle loaded with 'rat shot' to the barn to kill rats. Now I take an AK-47! Can't say that the barn isn't well ventilated since the change.

[Steeldrifter 0]

Level line availability....you all have one when you snip the taper off let's say a DT-6-F and believe it or not if you were to flip a WF-8-F around you have a L-6-F line. I am not advocating anyone go out and start replacing their tapered lines with level lines. Sadly in my mind all of the tapered engineering is part hyperbole and marketing, but that's my problem and I can deal with it.

 

True but what I was talking about far as availability was an actual full length 80' Level line, not just cutting the taper off and using the shorter level running section. Use to back in the day shops sold an actual level line with no taper that was a uniform diameter the entire 80ft length. That's the line that most of us that started back in the 80's had to deal with learning to cast on and learned to hate it

 

 

Well if you must have the real McCoy.....http://buy.scientificanglers.com/air-celtm-general-purpose-floating.html...it's the one priced for $18.95. Nuff said.

.....and when you started out are you sure it was the line or was it a case of the "Indian and The Bow and Arrow". Some day when you have some giggle time, why don't you rig one up for reevaluation. Might give you something to think about. Did me.:-). I started out once too.

 

No I don't want anything to do with the real McCoy, that was my whole point lol. Trust me being a rod builder for a living I have enough different types, tapers, wts of fly lines to reach from here all the way over to canada if you tied them end to end I've played with my old level line a few times over the years and it still casts poorly IMO when compared to the modern day tapers. Certainly not as bad as when I first started casting years ago, but that is to be expected when someone just starts out, but still with that said, even today I do not like the feel of a pure level line. To each his own though.

[perchjerker 0]

A short comment on level fly lines, and their historic role in rod taper design. If you will take a look at the so called "vintage" bamboo fly rods, most all will have letters, such as "HDH or E" written on the butt section, the alpha system is the "old" line weight rating system, and this example says the the rod was designed for 6wt DT line AND/OR a 5wt L (level line). Their tapers were designed for both type lines, as Weight Forward lines were a thing of the FUTURE.

 

All that any DT line is is a LEVEL LINE with TAPERED ENDS!! IMHO any decent caster should have no trouble casting a level line. I cut my "fly fishing teeth" in 1952 on a first generation Shakespeare "Art Howald Process Hollow Glass" rod, which I still have, and a level line. If I can do it, anyone can!

 

Cheers!

[Steeldrifter 0]

All that any DT line is is a LEVEL LINE with TAPERED ENDS!!

 

That makes no sense perchjerker. That's like saying a tapered mono leader is just a piece of level mono only with a tapered end, yes, but that taper is what makes it different. There are different grain weights of line depending on how much line is out from the tip, that is what determines how the line casts and the line feels. A line with no taper, a line with taper, a line with a larger front section (WF) all will have different feels with equal amounts of line (footage) out from the tip because each has different grain weights in the same amount of line.

 

Can a decent caster cast any sort of line, sure, but certain lines DO cast better than others and on the scale of good casting lines/tapers I would not put a level line anywhere near the top of the chart. Simple as that. I'm not going to waste time arguing about it, just my experience with lines over the years and how I feel about them. Nothing more nothing less. No one is forcing anyone to agree with me. But the question about tapers was asked and I am giving my opinion on it. Agree, disagree, doesn't make a difference we all have our opinions.

[SilverCreek 0]

There is nothing inherently about a tapered line or level line, tapered or level leader that makes it "kick". A kick is simply excess energy when the line or leader is fully extended. If line and leader taper or lack of it determined whether a leader would completely extend and kick, the George Harvey leader would not work. Whether a line or leader kicks or does not, depends on more than mass distribution (line taper) alone. It also depends on energy input and stiffness (longitudinal rigidity).

 

If a line kicks, it is because the caster has put too much energy into the cast.

 

Fly lines are leaders are tapered for two reasons.

 

The first reason is the first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy. Total energy is conserved in the fly cast. At the rod stop, the cast begins with a certain amount of energy. Some of the energy goes into fighting air resistance, moving the line, leader and fly through space against the air.

 

Moving a mass over a distance is called work. As work is done, there is less energy available to do additional work. So energy decreases but work has been done. We are trading energy for work.

 

Because we trade energy for work during the cast, the energy in the cast decreases as the cast moves forward and work is done. Since less energy is available the closer we get to the end of the fly line, if the line gets thinner with less mass; it follows that the lower mass fly line can go farther than if the fly line was of a constant diameter.

 

The first law of thermodynamics, the conservation of energy means a tapered fly line can go farther than a non tapered fly line with the same energy input. Said a different way, a tapered fly line is more efficient than a level line. The same is true for the leader.

 

The second reason has to do with presentation and minimizing on the water disturbance and visibility.

 

Fly lines are tapered because a thinner line creates less disturbance when it falls on the water. So it is able to produce a more delicate presentation. A taper creates a thinner fly line and leader closest to the fish.

 

A thinner line and leader closer to the fish produces less of an overhead shadow when in the air and on the water. Less visibility means it is less likely to spook fish,

 

A tapered fly line and leader makes less disturbance when it is picked up. They also carry less water that is sprayed off during following casts.

 

So the two reasons a tapered line is a better casting and fishing instrument than a level line are physics and presentation.

[mikechell 0]

Steve,

When you were young, and having trouble casting that level line ... wasn't that back when the fly line was made of cat gut, or bat wing or something like that?

 

Nice explanation, SilverCreek. Major in Engineering? Physical sciences? Or just smarter than your average bear?

[SilverCreek 0]

<p>I have 11 years of education at Stanford University at the undergraduate and graduate level and then another 3 years postgraduate education at the University of Utah. My undergraduate degree was in Chemistry and Medical Science.</p>

[Steeldrifter 0]

Steve,

When you were young, and having trouble casting that level line ... wasn't that back when the fly line was made of cat gut, or bat wing or something like that?

 

Nice explanation, SilverCreek. Major in Engineering? Physical sciences? Or just smarter than your average bear?

 

 

I don't think you can make OLD JOKES when you are older than me lol

[Rocco 0]

The main advantage in a DT over a L line is better presentation. The heavier blunt end of a L line -- which other wise casts like the DT -- tends more to splash down and spook fish you cast to.

 

The WF lines and "Rocket Tapers" give you somewhat louder landings at the head than the DT -- the tapered end is shorter than on the DT -- and distance advantanges with hauls and double hauls but they do not roll cast as efficiently as the DTs.

 

I have not 'worn out' a tapered fly line in 20 years as I clean and add floatant regularly to the heads -- even on stream if they start to sink. The DTs can be reversed to extend their useful life span too.

 

The old lines would crack and peel and get into sad condition fairly fast. And nothing did it faster than casting w/o a leader and a fly. The whip crack is the coating coming to pieces.

 

The level lines died a much deserved death as they probably drove more aspiring flyfishers to take up golf than any other single factor.

 

Rocco

[Peterjay 0]

I believe the original question was whether a tapered leader can take the place of a tapered line, and the answer is no. There's a difference in weight, a difference in suppleness, etc., etc., etc. As far as being able to cast a level line goes: like most of the veteran members here, I can cast a clothesline with a broom handle if I have to, but the kind of fishing I do requires long, accurate casts, often under difficult conditions, and those casts can be achieved best with lines that are manufactured with those situations in mind. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with marketing. Anyone who's developed a sense of "feel" over time can tell the difference between a level line and various tapers in a heartbeat. If all you're gonna do is throw streamers in a creek you can get by with almost anything, (I have, and so have many of us) but difficult situations require more specialized gear if we want to maximize our chances of a hookup.

[perchjerker 0]

All that any DT line is is a LEVEL LINE with TAPERED ENDS!!

 

That makes no sense perchjerker.

 

Steeldrifter...

 

This response makes me wonder if you truly understand what a level lines is, and what a double taper line is; in spite of the fact that I know that you do! Your 'analogy' with a tapered leader is so far off course as to be meaningless. The rest of your response is not germane to the subject.

 

For a refresher: A level line is of uniform diameter for it's entire length. A double taper line has a short taper on each end, with the bulk of the line being of uniform diameter for the bulk of it's length; ergo, it is nothing more than a level line with a short taper on each end.

 

I fail to see why this "...makes no sense...".

 

Does this not make sense now? Or was your response an "OOOOPS"?

 

Peace,

Frank

[mikechell 0]

Steve,

When you were young, and having trouble casting that level line ... wasn't that back when the fly line was made of cat gut, or bat wing or something like that?

 

Nice explanation, SilverCreek. Major in Engineering? Physical sciences? Or just smarter than your average bear?

 

 

I don't think you can make OLD JOKES when you are older than me lol

Oh ... I just forgot what we were using. I know I am ... more experienced ... but I don't give dates and I don't remember much of it.

[heavynets 0]

Since less energy is available the closer we get to the end of the fly line, if the line gets thinner with less mass; it follows that the lower mass fly line can go farther than if the fly line was of a constant diameter.

I don't see how it follows that the lower mass fly line goes farther. If the caster puts the same amount of energy (Kinetic Energy KE) into both, the lighter line must go faster to have the same energy as the heaver and therefore slower line. However, this does not mean that it goes farther. The distance the line travels can be found by this formula right out of a basic physics book: distance = KE / average resisting force

 

If both have the same KE and the same average resisting force, the distance will be identical. But will they have the same resisting force? The level line has a larger diameter at it's end than the DT line so that adds air resistance, slows the line and therefore decreases distance. The faster line has it's disadvantage too. Drag on an object through a fluid (air) increases at the SQUARE of velocity. So a small increase in velocity means a big increase in drag (resisting force) and therefore a decrease in distance.

 

Which would go farther? You would just have to cast them and see. Also, different lines, weights, manufacturers, etc. may give different results.

 

Sorry for the boring physics lesson. I just couldn't help myself.

[SilverCreek 0]

 

Since less energy is available the closer we get to the end of the fly line, if the line gets thinner with less mass; it follows that the lower mass fly line can go farther than if the fly line was of a constant diameter.

I don't see how it follows that the lower mass fly line goes farther. If the caster puts the same amount of energy (Kinetic Energy KE) into both, the lighter line must go faster to have the same energy as the heaver and therefore slower line. However, this does not mean that it goes farther. The distance the line travels can be found by this formula right out of a basic physics book: distance = KE / average resisting force

 

If both have the same KE and the same average resisting force, the distance will be identical. But will they have the same resisting force? The level line has a larger diameter at it's end than the DT line so that adds air resistance, slows the line and therefore decreases distance. The faster line has it's disadvantage too. Drag on an object through a fluid (air) increases at the SQUARE of velocity. So a small increase in velocity means a big increase in drag (resisting force) and therefore a decrease in distance.

 

Which would go farther? You would just have to cast them and see. Also, different lines, weights, manufacturers, etc. may give different results.

 

Sorry for the boring physics lesson. I just couldn't help myself.

 

 

 

If you had actually worked out "this formula right out of a basic physics book: distance = KE / average resisting force," you would have seen that the velocity cancels out. The Ke and the drag at any given instant have the identical value for V.

 

So lets put the velocity component of Ke in the numerator and the velocity component of drag in the denominator.

 

Drag does increases as V squared as you stated. However KE also varies a V squared, KE = .5MVV. In the formula KE/average resisting force, VV is both in the numerator and in the denominator. Therefore, they cancel each other out.

 

This leaves area (skin drag) and the drag coefficient (shape drag) in the denominator. Both are higher for the thicker fly line. When the loop is unfurling and the tapered end of the fly line is trailing, there is less exposed (skin) surface area holding back the loop. When the tapered end is unfurling, it has less shape drag (a lower Cd) than the thicker level line.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_

 

There is another part of the conservation of energy that comes into play with a tapered fly line. The conservation of energy when applied to a tapered fly line causes an increase in velocity to compensate for the decreasing line mass as the fly line tapers.

 

This is why a bull whip tip snaps. The thicker end of a bull whip is transferring its forward kinetic energy to the thinner end. Since the thinner end has less mass, to accept the KE from the thicker end, it has to speed up. The tapered end of the bull whip travels much faster than the butt end.

 

The same thing happens to a tapered fly line. In fact fly line manufactures adjust the line taper to fine tune the casting properties of the fly line. Think about this - if line taper did not matter, we would not have the multiple line tapers that we have now.

 

If we consider that a line taper causes velocity to increase, and that the higher the velocity, the further a fly line will go, we can see that this is another reason a tapered line goes father with the same energy input.

 

[heavynets 0]

"In the formula KE/average resisting force, VV is both in the numerator and in the denominator. Therefore, they cancel each other out."

 

 

VV is definitely in the numerator, but is not in the denominator at all. Show me where VV is in the denominator. The units for "force" are hardly the same as for "velocity".