Fly Tying Theory

[JayWirth 0]

I have recently taken a jump into fly tying and am curious to hear others view on tying and patterns. Many books on tying show specific standards for fly patterns. My first pattern I am trying to master is a black ghost. As a streamer there are standards for length of: tail, length of wing, specific materials, etc... Researching samples on the www and even pattern books from the 60's to present show examples that differ from the pattern standards for measurement (long wings, long tails, different materials etc...). Some of these samples are from well known professional tyers. As a long time jig tyer (30+ years) I am comfortable with substituting materials based on availability or expanding on a pattern. I also believe that in many ways variations come about based on a particular persons 'style'.

 

So my question to those with some experience: What is a properly tied fly? Is it sticking to the traditional standards? Is it knowing the standards but pushing the boundaries and still making a recognizable and effective fly?

[fishslayer88 0]

I grade my flies by their ability to catch fish.

[rotaryflytyingdotcom 0]

Of course the easy answer to that is any fly that catches fish. But when you go beyond that I think a properly tied fly might well push the standards and remain in the realm of "properly tied" and when it happen often enough - and works - new standards. are established.

 

However, I really support teaching and learning the standards and proper proportion for flies. Most of those standards are based on something with true meaning when it comes to fishing. Streamer wings that are too long wrap around the bend - dry fly wings that are too tall cause the fly to spin or fall over - dry fly tails that are too short can't support the bend of the hook and so on.

[JayWirth 0]

Here are a few examples that add to my confusion. All are nice streamers, the first probably the better example of the three. The second short on the tail and beard and a bit long in the wing. The third has good proportions though the bucktail wing is definitely non-traditional.

 

Are these good streamers?

[flytire 0]

the flies above are basically different variatons/adaptations of the black ghost streamer as are some of the ones in the following link

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=black+ghost+fly&safe=active&nord=1&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=d8ADU7uSMOWj0QGzmoGIDQ&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1250&bih=613

 

to me this would be an accepted standard of the black ghost

 

 

 

http://globalflyfisher.com/streamers/guest/welch/blackghost.htm

 

there are also "casting" streamers and "trolling" streamers

[mikechell 0]

You don't make a definition in your question as to:

1) Are you trying to tie traditional flies for display, sale or competition?

2) Are you trying to tie flies that will be used to catch fish, or ...

3) Are you trying to tie flies that are perfectly matched to originals?

 

Each one is pretty much self answered and should give you the basis for what you want to do.

1) You must present with perfect tying techniques. You're fly does not have to match the original, if what you've done looks even better.

2) Who cares what the originals look like, if your fly catches fish, it's good.

3) No variations ... yours must match the original as perfectly as possible.

[Old Hat 0]

Standards come with both cosmetic (artistic) and functional purposes. Cosmetic standards most often include material, color, visual balance, style etc. and are more about the tier. Functional standards (which can also include material) determine how the fly behaves and are more about catching fish. I believe there is leeway for both, far more so for cosmetic or artistic purposes. Who is really qualified to set an artistic standard? As Mr. Rotary mentioned there are specific reasons for some of the proportional standards and material standards that simply help present the fly correctly as it was initially intended for. These are standards for specific styles of flies and are most appropriate. Do you need to follow the standard? Of course not, but you should be able to answer why not? What are you trying to achieve by not following the standard? You should then have a purpose for not following the standard. Maybe you are after a different action in the fly, maybe you want the fly to present higher in the column or lower. We don't all fish the same way or the same water or target the same fish. Our personal flies should represent this. There is a place for standards but they should really be called "guidelines". Freedom to the tier!

 

My thoughts change a bit if one is trying to tie in a certain style such as a Catskill feather wing dry or a North Country Spider. In those circumstances it not about the individual fly but a specific style and there are clear standards that represent that style.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

This is an interesting question with lots of possible answers depending on one's point of view. I think there are some basic standards (most of them having to do with fly proportions) that shouldn't be ignored because they make the flies they pertain to fish as effectively as possible. Other conventions have more to do with a particular tying style or the aesthetic of a particular region and/or time period and/or individual tier, and I think these should be ignored or changed as we see fit.

 

This is my position because I think of a fly's purpose as being first, foremost and always to catch fish. If a convention or standard of tying adds to or is necessary for a fly's effectiveness, I honor it absolutely. If it doesn't, I honor it if I like it and ditch it if I don't. To me, a "properly tied fly" is one that does what I want it to do, and whose appearance inspires my confidence in its effectiveness such that I fish it attentively and correctly.

[rotaryflytyingdotcom 0]

JayWirth,

My take on those three streamers would be they are all good and all in proportion but tied differently for different applications.

 

The first on I’d call a casting streamer with a high wing mount to help prevent the wing/wrap problem sometimes caused by a long wing. Another option for a streamer tied with a high mount wing like that is display with the wing oversized for visibility.

 

The second I’d call a trolling streamer tied on what looks to be a 8X long shanked hook. Probably not meant to be cast so the long wing doesn’t cause a wrapping problem and the extra length adds to the sleek baitfish look. (think smelt)

 

The third I’d call a Bucktail variation. I often tie Black Ghosts with Bucktail or Calftail for fast water fishing. The hairwing silhouette seems to hold a better profile in the crashing whitewater landlocks are often found in and landlocks love a Black Ghost.

[rockworm 0]

Jayworth

 

A properly-tyed fly is one whose parts work efficiently and in harmony to entice and hook the target fish in a particular environment. Given that the pattern is well-established we may assume it has been proven to entice fish in certain conditions. But if we intend to use the fly in different circumstances we may want to alter (subtly or not so subtly) its parts. This happens all the time with salmon flies which are commonly adapted to the depth, clarity and flow rate of the intended water. To this end materials can be substituted, proportions can be altered and colours can be changed.

[JayWirth 0]

Thanks for all the input! I do enjoy discussing such things and try to understand the how's, why's, and history. A few weeks ago I sat down and only looked at a photo w/ written description of hook, body, wing etc... of what I thought was a nice black ghost. I tied 5 trying to improve with each one. A buddy at work, a long time fly fisherman loved them. Pointed out a few week areas but was obviously impressed. He brought in a few pro tied samples for me to compare. I would have rated my first attempt 6/10. My buddy offered to show them to his brother who has tied flies about 30 years - I was eager to get a critique from someone who knew what they were doing. I expected him to point out things that I had an idea where not perfect and could make some corrections based on his comments. Sometimes we get what we ask for........he pointed out the things I expected but also made a big deal on proportion saying they weren't good enough to use. Not a big deal, Im older and becoming wiser and accept this critique and try to learn and improve. As I mentioned before I am a long time jig tyer (second generation manufacturer) and am not to bad with tandem bucktail streamers (see my avatar) so I think I know a little something about attaching hair and feathers to steel. My thoughts are similar to much of the advise offered in this thread. I personally do try to always learn and find value in knowing the traditional methods.

 

I have a proper fly vise ordered. Ill post some streamer picts as soon as its in.

[rotaryflytyingdotcom 0]

Hey Flytire,

That link you pasted from the search was interesting. First time I've seen a Crazy Charlie tied as a Black Ghost.

[JSzymczyk 0]

As I mentioned before I am a long time jig tyer (second generation manufacturer)

 

I have a proper fly vise ordered. Ill post some streamer picts as soon as its in.

 

 

What have you been using to tie jigs then?

[JayWirth 0]

I have a Universal II vise that I have used for close to 30 years. I love these vise and found no reason to change, especially for jig tying. I can tie flies on this but have recently ordered a Renzetti Presentation to have space in and around the hook. Check out the fly bench data base you can see my old bench on left with the Universal II and my new old bench waiting for my fly setup. I know most people dont need two benches but I do my production tying (jigs) and dont want to tear down and set up each time Im switching styles.

[Crackaig 0]

Hi Jay,

 

There is, thankfully, no standards authority for fly tying. Being properly tied to me is first and foremost producing a fly that will stand up to the rigours of being fished (I don't mean catching fish by this). Recently at a Fly fair in Ireland I saw a tier Andreas Anderson) rip the wing of a beautifully tied classic salmon fly apart with his bodkin. He explained that a well tied wing, on a fishing fly, should knit back together with a few strokes of your fingers. He stroked the wing a few times and it re formed into the perfect wing it was before. I think we could all agree that that was a properly tied fly. Of course the first fish's teeth may rip the wing off altogether. That says nothing about the quality of the tying. Hence I said "rigours of fishing" not catching.

 

Another way to look at "properly tied" is the control of the materials. For example, does a fly have a big head because that is what the pattern calls for, or because of crowding the eye and trying to push everything back with the thread?

 

I find myself in agreement with most of what has already been said. I know little about the classic streamers, and only really play at tying them. Something I notice though is one convention hasn't been mentioned. It is important, and is the best way to discuss proportion. The proportions of a fly are given in relation to the hook being used. The beard hackle on the second fly you posted may be longer that that of the first, though the first defiantly seems better proportioned, to my eye.

 

Cheers,

C.