What grade of hackle to get?

[JohnWu 0]

Started tying a while ago and only bought cheap indian necks. They are good for some but I'm going to get some metz capes. I have no idea how this grading system works. I tie a lot of size 14s through to 20s. What saddle should i go for?

 

I also was looking on ebay and seen a few wee cock necks id like and they say grade AA? Whats that mean??

 

Cheers

[Crackaig 0]

It is a thing judged by the hackle producer. Whitings put some explanation on their packs. However it is done, it is very subjective.

 

Usually I look for Pro Grade from Whitings. The reason being that pro grade is cheaper! I was told, and I don't know if it is accurate, but I believe it. That pro grade are so graded because they have more than average number of broken hackle tips. I was told this by the UK's main importer of Whitings hackle so... Broken hackle tips are fine by me as the tips are just too fine for wings, meaning they are usually discarded anyway.

 

You will probably find the price of Whitings Pro Grade similar to your Metz.

 

The best thing you can do is take a look at the cape for yourself. Recently I have stopped saying "I want a saddle to tie size 14s and 16s. Rather I say I am looking for a barb length of X mm. What one person's idea of a size 16 hackle should be may be different to yours. One saddle I bought a few months ago for sizes 16 & 18 I would use on sizes 8 and 10. Of course I didn't get to see it first. Otherwise...

 

Cheers,

C.

[Adam Saarinen 0]

I bought a hook & hackke gauge yesturday, only cost a couple of 's, thought i would never need that kind of thing! But when you make a few with to big a hackle & a few with to small a hackle you think again?

[cheech 0]

Whiting is by far the best at grading their hackle.

 

http://www.whitingfarms.com/articles/grading.html

 

We did an extensive comparison study on most of the popular brands, and we found that Whiting bronze grade is a really really good value. Pro grade, and high and dry capes are very good as well.

 

http://www.flyfishfood.com/2014/09/hackle-comparisons.html

 

Cheech

[cjsnyder1234 0]

Whiting is the way to go. I live silver grade Hebert and bronze red label but it is up to you there is a hackle review in fly fish food . Com but from what they say bronze red label is the best for the money.

[utyer 0]

The AA grade you mentioned is usually only applied to imported Chinese or Indian necks. AA is slightly better than A, which isn't saying much. Most the the imported neck hackle well below the standard of the specialty grown hackle. The feathers are quite a bit shorter, and in the size range you want the feathers may be only an inch long after you remove the fluff.

 

Necks will give you a wider range of sizes, while most saddles will have a much smaller range of sizes. A typical neck will have hackle with barb lengths suitable for all size flies. A typical saddle will have feathers with only 3 to 4 sizes. Specialty grown saddles will have very long feathers with only a very slight taper in the barbs through the usable sections. In most cases a single hackle can be used to do 5 to 6 flies. I have one saddle with very long feathers, they also have very short barbs. I can tie from size 16 to 22 with this saddle, and I can usually get 6 to 9 flies per feather.

 

As stated the Pro grade or lower grades in hackles specially grown for quality hackle will be more than sufficient for most of your needs.

[Red Owl 0]

I'm just getting started myself so I also need information. On the necks, when a rooster "raises his hackles" they are what I would consider moderate length- 2-3 inches and around the neck. The first time I saw a saddle with the very long feathers I thought they were ideal. In any event, from what I have been reading, it sounds like the shorter "around the neck" hackles are actually of stiffer barbs and make for a better dry fly.

Is this just splitting hairs or are neck hackles superior to saddle on dry flies?

And, for a newbie. Geez......Necks are expensive and if you need dun here, grizzly there, ginger on another, etc. etc. what to do? You cold spend a small fortune if you need a neck for every type and one neck has more than what you need.

[tidewaterfly 0]

Red Owl, you bring up a good point, and yes it can get very expensive. When I started tying, we used more of the Indian & Chinese necks. Genetically produced hackle was available but was very expensive. I didn't tie a lot of dry flies & still don't, so I used what was economical for me & I made due. The fact is, some types of flies can still be tied with Indian necks, but generally hackle such as Whiting produces is a better value if you tie a lot of dry flies & in the smaller sizes. Some saddles are just as good as the necks for dry flies, but that will really depend on the saddle/neck you have. None are exactly alike. Generally neck hackle is stiffer & has better barb length, but again it depends on the neck compared to a saddle. As said by Crackaig above, barb length combined with appropriate stiffness is more important than simply stiffness alone and some saddle hackle will have both.

 

No matter what, if you wish to tie a wider variety, you'll need to invest in the hackle. For many patterns you could stick to grizzly, brown/ginger & dun shades & combine them, or even do some of your own dyeing when you need to. But, that won't fit all patterns. It's highly doubtful you'll need every shade of hackle that's produced, so what you get is more personal choice than anything.

 

Fortunately there are alternatives to buying whole capes or saddles that can help keep the costs down, such as half necks/saddles or packs such as the Whiting 100's. They're still will be an investment involved however. How far you're willing to take it is up to you.

 

I don't tie many dry flies, but have acquired some dry fly hackle over the years if I need it. I tied commercially at one time & even though I didn't tie a lot of dry flies then, I still would get orders for them so I bought some hackle. Properly stored & protected it doesn't go bad.

 

When I get to chase trout it's most often later in the year so I rely more on terrestrial patterns that don't need the better dry fly hackle to tie. Still, I'll tie such patterns as foam Ants & use the Indian necks for adding some hackle & save the better dry fly hackle for patterns that require it. For patterns like that where the hackle is not supporting the fly, such lesser costly necks are good to have. They work well for adding hackle to poppers & such too!

[SilverCreek 0]

I don't buy necks because I won't use many of the feathers. Necks have the full range of hackle sizes and before you buy one will you really tie size 26 to size 4 flies with equal regularity? I don't. I tie and fish dry flies mainly in size 12 to size 18. I think the single most popular dry fly is a parachute Adams in size 14. For me that is right on but for you, the size may be a12 or a 16, or something else depending on your local streams.

For tail waters it may be very small flies and for freestone rivers it may be larger. The key point is that very few of us really need the full range of hackle in the neck. If you look at a fly tier's neck that is well used, you will find that there is a "sweet" spot which has most of the hackle removed and the upper and lower ends are virtually unused.

So for me, the answer is very simple. Saddles are cheaper than necks for similarly grades. Saddles have mostly 2 sizes and a few that may tie a size larger or smaller. So If you tie mainly size 14/16 files but a saddle that has those size.

Then what grade should you buy? Because I tie parachutes I don’t think I need as stiff a hackle as for the traditional palmered hackle. The hackle does not support the fly at the tips but along the entire shaft. There is less stress on each individual shaft.

For me, I buy the pro grade because, I can examine and get what I want at the cheapest cost. A Hebert Miner prograde saddle is $33 (Hebert Miner is a Whiting Brand), and is great for the larger 12/14 flies. For the smaller hackle, Whiting Pro Grade is what I buy.

[phg 0]

Two points that haven't been mentioned yet:

1) Most saddle hackles have a more pronounced curve in them than neck hackles. This may or may not be a problem for you.

2) Saddle barbs are usually thicker than the same size neck hackle. Consequently, flies hackled with saddle hackle tend to look bushier than those hackled with neck hackles.

 

For the most part, I agree with what's been said above. I have, and use, both capes and saddles. I tend toward "pro" grade or "commercial" grade, because of the initial outlay, but studies have show that the higher grades are more cost effective, if you tie a lot of flies. On the other hand, it's doubtful that I will ever use up what I've already got....

[SilverCreek 0]

I think if higher grades were most cost effective, the fly tying factories in Asia and Africa would be using them. They literally tie millions of flies per year.

 

I wonder if the reality confirms the advertising. Has anyone ever studied whether the Whiting advertising is true? And is it ALWAYS TRUE or is it true 51% of the time so it can be advertised? Call me a curmudgeon, but life has taught me to take unconfirmed self serving advertising with a grain of salt.

[sammothner 0]

sounds like its time to save money by tying flies by buying some more hackle!

[Stevester 0]

Grading hackle is not an exact science, it is a judgement of humans. As to the other points, all are good. While I also normally get the commercial grade from my preferred hackle grower, I understand why some people will get the Grade A or Gold necks and saddles. Its a pride of ownership or trophy thing. And for a little perspective on cost, when Metz necks first started becoming widely available the top grade cost around $40, in 1980 dollars. The best of something usually costs more and thanks to work of Tom Whiting we can have very high quality at a reasonable price if you don't have the absolute best. There are also some smaller growers who put out quality product at a price that is somewhat easier to take. While I don't tie a lot of hackled dries I do prefer necks since I never know what size I will be tying and necks just have a wider variety of sizes. You can tie an awful lot of patterns with grizzly, brown (red game to our UK friends), dun and ginger colors.

 

Steve

[TableGrouch 0]

I fish a variety of streams and rivers, almost exclusively for trout. I find that sooner or later I need some of the smaller size hackle; dun for BWO, grizzly for gnats ... and I like to tie Adams down to size 20. Unless you're certain of what you need, I'd start with a neck. As many have said, the 14 thru 18 size hackle are the first to go. Once I've tied through a section of any neck I'll then buy a saddle in the hackle size I've depleted.

[JSzymczyk 0]

someone HAS done a comprehensive comparison of "name brand" hackle recently- it compared things such as feathers per cape per grade per size, barb count per centimeter (or inch), and more subjective criteria such as flexibility. It was either on here or on FAOL... and I believe it was posted last year. My memory of it has faded.

 

Bottom line is: all of the selectively bred hackle available today is astonishing compared to what was available even 30 years ago, let alone 70 or 80 years ago. The "CLASSIC" dry fly tiers of yesteryear would crap their pants if they could see a Whiting cape, and no one even dreamed of tying dry flies with saddle hackles.