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The Burden of Flyfishing?

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Someone said they don't pull the fish from the water, I generally do the same thing. You would be surprised how even larger fish will be content at the side of your waders. I then take hemostats reach down slowly and slip the pinched barb or barbless hook out of it's mouth. Streamers tend to run deeper if something is going to, dry flies and nymphs are almost always around the lip area someplace. I release the fish, some scurry away fast but most just take their time and slither off down in the deeper water swimming away. i try to do the same thing from our boat. One year in Maine I caught a salmon at the tail of a pool that had three hook marks in it's mouth from barbed hooks, barbless leave almost no mark . .

 

I spoke with a guy who ran a local shop, he had been to school for all this aquatic eco fishology stuff and had a license to farm raise fish and shell fish. In fact he closed the shop to go do that. He said fish feel through the lateral line down their sides. They know survival by instinct. So do what you can to keep it calm, being out of water would be like someone burying us in sand alive. I think we would panic.

 

All that said, I've undergone a life long transition in fishing. I've gone from a mad passion to catch every fish I could to accepting what ever I get or don't. I'm a very spiritual man, I believe there is a God in the form of a trinity and that is present in everything we touch and do, in every detail of our lives which includes going fishing.. My belief I said, I didn't say I was pushing that on anyone else. Through that belief and for me, I justify with Him my catch, not with the fish. And if it's a fishless day so be it. I don't go to the water to beat up every inch of a pool or lake I can, not with a quantity of fish in mind, not with a mind set to terrorize.. Some days it's an eagles turn to catch fish right before my eyes, he has gotten the very fish I was trying for rather than me. Cool, I'm good with that ! I'm at peace, if I catch three fish, ten, none, or if I never step in the water at all and the eagle gets the fish.. When I catch a fish I treat it with the best level of respect I can, if he flips and goes nuts and the hook rips his mouth, I'm sorry pal but that one is on you. My plan, the plan in my mind going in, the one this God knows about was to slip the hook out and let you go. It bothers me for a moment if I catch a small fish on a large streamer and it's bleeding out it's gill. I can't take it it's not a legal size. Then I think, the fish are here to feed and be fed on. He will die and be easy prey for that eagle or cormorant or a big fish. And i say Amen to my God. All of life is that simple, we ad our own complication in any number of orders of magnitude.. If I haven't caught and released enough fish in 60 years ( started fishing at 6) to fill the back of a pickup truck, then I haven't caught one ( never mind the ones I've eaten). I regret but one, the one I took to mount and never got it done. And at that It became fertilizer.

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You could also look at it as training for the fish so when the guy who keeps everything he catches hits the stream maybe that fish doesnt eat his elk hair caddis :) so then your actually saving the fishes life!

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You could also look at it as training for the fish so when the guy who keeps everything he catches hits the stream maybe that fish doesnt eat his elk hair caddis smile.png so then your actually saving the fishes life!

Perfect !

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A true sportsman should have thoughts like this, respect for his quarry if nothing else. But the bothering part bulb nobody can help you with that. That is on you to deal with.

 

Perfect answer and very wise!

 

(feral cat portion removed)

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so they can kill a BILLION songbirds each year?

 

I'd rather fish for feral cats..... but it is widely frowned upon.

Although I agree that feral cats are a problem ... I have to comment. Cats, like all mammals, are a higher order of fauna than fish. Cats DO feel something closer to "pain" and react accordingly when injured.

Personally, if I saw someone using a hook on a cat ...

Well, lets just say ... I'd rather put a hook in, and play to hand, that person.

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definitely appreciate your quandry, where you end up with it is your journey.

On the subject of pain, though; reliable, peer-reviewed professional science has shown that fish do not feel pain as we define it. They do not have the requisite senses, the physiology, to process pain in the brain as we do. They do have senses that alert them to stimuli that are bad for survival. They do have senses that allow them to discriminate food items. They have senses (e.g., lateral lines) that allow them to detect things we humans cannot. The science is apparently unpersuasive, though, as many people don't buy it.
If I gill-hook a fish it does not feel pain, but I may jeopardize its survival.

Throughout the animal kingdom, species have special adaptations that secure their survival in their natural environment.

This information does not address the question of whether fishing is frivolous, selfish, or immoral. That is for each of us to decide. I don't try to defend my position as a catch and release fisherman because I admit it can seem somewhat silly to toy with nature that way. My household is vegan, for me it has to do with heart health, for others there is a moral objection to killing of animals, even domestic, yet those members of my household support my fishing pursuits. Go figure.

I didn't reference any publications here, you can google or go to the library and find a ton of information on fish senses. Societies and journals such as the American Fisheries Society with its journal are also available sources.

The questions raised here are valid questions, well worth thought. I've always believed that stewardship of our environment and its inhabitants is a high calling for human beings. That said, we should take care not to relate to every living thing in human terms of reference. We should (IMHO) try to understand the unique physiology of the things we ponder in order to lay a proper foundation for forming our viewpoints.

As someone else already said, just my $.02 worth.

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While this is a deeply moral/ethical issue, it's equally important to remember that it is every bit as much a personal/subjective issue.

 

As such, what may not bother one person may be such an issue as to make another completely incapable of the same action on moral/ethical grounds. That doesn't mean that the first person is unethical or amoral...and it also doesn't mean that the second person is more ethical or moral...or that they're weaker or more squeamish...every person much decide for himself or herself what is and is not acceptable, and then reconcile their conduct to that. Of course, there are some that will criticize that degree of moral relativism, but that sort of universal relativism in all this is an outlook that I've never seen convincingly disproven (the question of which is beyond the scope of the discussion here).

 

From that point, there are many, many ways to help one's views and behaviors align, or to help them come to peace with what they do. Several have already been mentioned, from the old "fish don't feel pain" line, regarding which I have my doubts as to extent and relevance, to the brutal alternatives in nature (again, in regard to catch & release fishing, I have some objections), to strict appeals to scale and relativism, and even appeals to mysticism/religion/deity/etc.

 

What works to soothe one person's conscience may be completely irrelevant to someone else. The important part is to find a philosophical justification that works for you, and then to learn to not care what other people think of your actions. There are some (probably many) people that it won't be possible for you to convince them of the morality of your fishing...the only one that truly matters is that you convince yourself...and if you find you can't, that's when you need to question whether fishing is for you.

 

Personally, my justifications for hunting and fishing are generally very different from one another, mostly based upon the fact that my fishing is overwhelmingly catch & release, while a similar strategy is not possible while hunting. In my hunting, the justification is as simple as my obtaining a healthy, natural supplement to my diet (or a part of the core of my diet, where deer hunting is concerned), and that by striving for a quick, clean kill, I am giving that animal a far less traumatic death than it would face in nature. I've had some people question the need for hunting by asking, "Couldn't you just buy beef/chicken at the store instead of having to kill that animal?" and while that's a valid question, I believe that the natural environment, personal hand, and ethical killing are preferable to the desensitizing distance between the large scale farm and picking up a styrofoam pack from a supermarket shelf.

 

For fishing, it's different, because there's no dichotomy (in my fishing...the catch & keep fisherman can use my hunting justification with near-equal relevance). Had I not caught that fish, it would have gone on with its day, with that much less stress, calories burned, injury suffered, and opportunities at *real* food missed. For me, fishing is justified with a complex, and somewhat difficult to explain reasoning. For me, fish in general are a mystery and an endless learning experience. I admire and respect fish, and I cast to them out of that respect, in an effort to learn more about them in a direct, firsthand experience. I make every reasonable effort to minimize the negative impact on the fish while still satisfying my fascination, interest, and curiosity about them. Ultimately, yes, I could cause them less negative impact by not pursuing them, but if I did that, I would lose a large part of my regard for them altogether. It'd be similar to asking someone to give their husband/wife/significant other more time and freedom by not spending time with them and just letting them go and do their own thing, admiring them from a distance, without direct contact. Sure, technically it might make sense, but we humans are notoriously irrational, and in that case, many people would slowly fall out of love with that object of their affection. Ultimately, I believe that the ways I choose to fish allow me to satisfy that passion and interest in the way that the fish I target live...while also respecting those same fish as much as I practically can. Bluntly, I conduct my fishing in a way that I can live with the amount of negative impact I have on the fish I catch.

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You're right Mike. Nothing funny about hooking cats. I'm a bit ashamed.

 

 

 

so they can kill a BILLION songbirds each year?

 

I'd rather fish for feral cats..... but it is widely frowned upon.

Although I agree that feral cats are a problem ... I have to comment. Cats, like all mammals, are a higher order of fauna than fish. Cats DO feel something closer to "pain" and react accordingly when injured.

Personally, if I saw someone using a hook on a cat ...

Well, lets just say ... I'd rather put a hook in, and play to hand, that person.

 

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Feral cats are the worst invasive predator we can release into the wild according to many scientific and wildlife agencies. Their colonies should be humanly sterilized to prevent breeding. Cruelty is bad, but protecting the rest of God's creatures may mean euthaizing feral cats.

 

OK here is the study almost everyone uses as a basis for fish and pain.

 

http://www.agrar.hu-berlin.de/de/institut/departments/daoe/quagrec/dntw/jp_bfm/publ_html/roseetal-fishfish-online-2012.pdf

 

It is long and not a sound byte. It defines pain and other responses.

 

 

My neighbor is Vietnamese. He bass fishes and never keeps a fish. His wife converted him (she is American from midwest) to Christianity. My neighbor's mother, practices a form of Buddism and she thinks his no kill fishing is terrible. Fish should only be fished for when you allow them to die and become food and complete their cycle. So her belief is no kill fishing denies the fish it's purpose in life.

 

Do whatever allows you to sleep at night and make eye contact with the man in the mirror.

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Feral cats are the worst invasive predator we can release into the wild according to many scientific and wildlife agencies. Their colonies should be humanly sterilized to prevent breeding. Cruelty is bad, but protecting the rest of God's creatures may mean euthaizing feral cats.

 

OK here is the study almost everyone uses as a basis for fish and pain.

 

http://www.agrar.hu-berlin.de/de/institut/departments/daoe/quagrec/dntw/jp_bfm/publ_html/roseetal-fishfish-online-2012.pdf

 

It is long and not a sound byte. It defines pain and other responses.

 

 

My neighbor is Vietnamese. He bass fishes and never keeps a fish. His wife converted him (she is American from midwest) to Christianity. My neighbor's mother, practices a form of Buddism and she thinks his no kill fishing is terrible. Fish should only be fished for when you allow them to die and become food and complete their cycle. So her belief is no kill fishing denies the fish it's purpose in life.

 

Do whatever allows you to sleep at night and make eye contact with the man in the mirror.

I think coyotes are the worst, they not only kill but they kill for just a portion of a meal. Oh and they kill house pets. Someone thought it would be neat to introduce coyotes to Cape Cod decades ago and they ended up opening up extended hunting season and long rifle hunting for them to try and control the creeps. They don't belong here which in itself is another topic for another day.

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Troutguy is correct.

In your area, Dave, coyote might be bad ... but feral house cats are bad EVERYWHERE.

I have no problem killing wild cats. If they can be captured, spay/neutered, and returned, okay.

Eliminating them, at this stage is probably hard, but they populations should be vastly culled.

I do have a problem with causing unnecessary suffering in animals that DO suffer, as all mammals are capable of.

 

JS ... I know you aren't the kind of guy who would cause undo cruelty ... but it just irks me to even see the suggestion.

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It cant be much worse then getting electrocuted by the researchers in there high voltage boats only to be released!! I participate in tagging saltwater fish so I feel im helping there, though I have to admit I only tag the ones I dont eat otherwise there data is short lol well I tagged this redfish who then migrated to my dinner table :)

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Raccoons went about chewing up my boat interior, chewed up the bow rider combing, the back of one seat and the cork on one rod. Cost me a few hundred bucks to get right again. We have a bit of an issue with them around here too FWIW. So we started caging them, ten raccoons later got the grand ma. She was in the trap in the morning, bad spot cause she was able to grab my trailer wiring and unstring one whole side basically. Crafty buggers, she had her final feat of destruction on the property.. I think a good part of the family bedded down one winter in an unused side of the chimney. Lucky for them and us as well I didn't fire the coal stove up. Since then I've installed a pellet stove there and capped the chimney with 4" screened vent etc. Nobody getting in.

 

I guess cats are a big problem in some areas, here it's various forms of wild life it seems. We have Ferrel cats around here too.A lady locally takes in what she can, got hooked up with a vet down the street. Our two latest kittens in the house are off spring. They're growing up to be two really nice boys. In a couple more months they get snipped, mostly for sanity sake since our cats don't go out. Guess I'm rambling, oh well !

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