The Burden of Flyfishing?

[Dave G. 0]

Ever watch a fish watch your hand go for the fly to get the fly out and it starts wiggling and jumping around ? Next time you catch a fish watch it's eye. Just if it's a big salmon, if it's a big pickerel or a bluefish be careful, cause they will snap at ya and slash your finger open ( been there done that, I use hemostats now and have for a long time).

[Cold 0]

 

From Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Simple Definition of stress

: a state of mental tension and worry caused by problems in your life, work, etc.

: something that causes strong feelings of worry or anxiety

Stress is a human term. Fish get tired. The muscles lactate, the oxygen levels drop. They "weaken".

Fish do not have adrenal glands, exactly. There also does not seem to be a "fight or flight" reaction associated with adrenal glands.

They are territorial in certain conditions, and they avoid being eaten ... but they don't "stress" as mammals do.

 

So I guess stress fractures on metal parts are caused because those parts are worrying?

 

Go beyond the 'simple definition', no need to be facetious when it's pretty obvious what's being discussed.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/stress

 

 

Full Definition of stress

1

: constraining force or influence: as

a : a force exerted when one body or body part presses on, pulls on, pushes against, or tends to compress or twist another body or body part; especially : the intensity of this mutual force commonly expressed in pounds per square inch

b : the deformation caused in a body by such a force

c : a physical, chemical, or emotional factor that causes bodily or mental tension and may be a factor in disease causation

d : a state resulting from a stress; especially : one of bodily or mental tension resulting from factors that tend to alter an existent equilibrium <job-related stress>

e : strain, pressure <the environment is under stress to the point of collapse — Joseph Shoben>

2

: emphasis, weight <lay stress on a point>

3

archaic : intense effort or exertion

4

: intensity of utterance given to a speech sound, syllable, or word producing relative loudness

5

a : relative force or prominence of sound in verse

b : a syllable having relative force or prominence

6

: accent 6a

 

Please refer to pretty much every letter of the first definition.

 

This is from the very same site you referenced.

[mikechell 0]

 

 

From Merriam Webster Dictionary:

Simple Definition of stress

: a state of mental tension and worry caused by problems in your life, work, etc.

: something that causes strong feelings of worry or anxiety

Stress is a human term. Fish get tired. The muscles lactate, the oxygen levels drop. They "weaken".

Fish do not have adrenal glands, exactly. There also does not seem to be a "fight or flight" reaction associated with adrenal glands.

They are territorial in certain conditions, and they avoid being eaten ... but they don't "stress" as mammals do.

 

 

 

Full Definition of stress

1: constraining force or influence: as

a : a force exerted when one body or body part presses on, pulls on, pushes against, or tends to compress or twist another body or body part; especially : the intensity of this mutual force commonly expressed in pounds per square inch

b : the deformation caused in a body by such a force

c : a physical, chemical, or emotional factor that causes bodily or mental tension and may be a factor in disease causation

d : a state resulting from a stress; especially : one of bodily or mental tension resulting from factors that tend to alter an existent equilibrium

e : strain, pressure

2: emphasis, weight

3 archaic : intense effort or exertion

4: intensity of utterance given to a speech sound, syllable, or word producing relative loudness

a : relative force or prominence of sound in verse

b : a syllable having relative force or prominence

6: accent

 

Thank you, sir, for making my point. None of the definitions in the "full" version pertain to the condition of a hooked and landed fish.

I used the simple definition because it was the only part that actually came the closest to a fish's reaction.

I maintain my position that the piscine brain is too simple to "feel".

 

Metal fatigue and "stress" isn't the same definition.

 

In your own words ... "... no need to be facetious when it's pretty obvious what's being discussed."

[Cold 0]

You can't see how "a physical, chemical, or emotional factor that causes bodily or mental tension" might be more applicable?

[mikechell 0]

If the mind and body has the ability to respond with "stress", yes. But the fish does not react the way "we" do to these factors.

1) There is NO emotional component.

2) Fish live in an entirely physical environment. They are constantly in contact with vegetation and structure that would drive us crazy. Watch any video or aquarium and see how the fish "scratch" themselves by plowing through rocks that would cut us to pieces. They rub themselves raw when they're making their redds. If we had to do what some fish do to have sex, the human race would be extinct. "You want me to do what??!! Go #(*@ yourself!"

3) They don't even "think" enough to give up before dying. If you fight a fish long enough, you kill it.

 

Again ... we "tire" a fish and fatigue it to the point of death if we are not careful. We do not "stress" it, because stress, as defined, is an emotion.

[Cold 0]

Nobody anywhere in the whole thread said that fish worry or experience emotional negativity like humans, and it's silly to suggest. Might as well say that fish don't need oxygen because they don't breathe air like humans. They, just like any other animal, are creatures of instinct and experience. That is no indication that they don't feel stress, if anything it suggests the contrary: that the *only* responses they have to their environment are stress-based, and they learn and adapt to their environment by repeating behaviors that don't result in stress while avoiding those that do. Even in your third example, why would the fish give up before dying? It doesn't understand the effects of lactic acid, blood oxygen level, or even the concept of a fatalistic wager ("If I keep this up, I'll definitely die, if I chill out, I only *might* die...and the behavior hasn't done me much good, so I'll just wait and see...). All they know is that they've lost the ability to move through their environment as they normally do, and they need to fix that. Unfortunately for fish, they don't have too many tools at their disposal to do so.

 

You're just tilting at windmills, and getting inaccurately pedantic in the attempt, trying to split hairs between "tire" and "stress", when both are completely acceptable terms.

[mikechell 0]

Thanks again. You keep bolstering my point. I appreciate it.

[IgotWood 0]

Food for thought...

 

Have you ever caught the same fish twice? I can recall many fish that me and my buddies have caught more than once. In fact, two years ago I caught a big rainbow that had a very distinct black marking on the right side of its lower jaw. A few weeks later, a friend caught the same fish in the same general area. Two years later, this past fall, I caught the fish again. The marking is so obvious, that I am 100% certain it was the same fish. Caught it again in the same pool. Over the next month, three other friends caught the same fish.

 

 

Most fly fishermen practice catch & release. And thank goodness for "fly only" and "C&R" areas. I don't know the facts here, but I would assume that these days, the mortality rate is pretty low. And I think that due to the increase in popularity of the sport, online forums, and social media, more fishermen are better educated today, and safe handling is practiced more. We are fortunate to have the opportunity to connect with nature in this unique way, and unlike hunting, we don't have to kill an animal to enjoy it.

[Cold 0]

Thanks again. You keep bolstering my point. I appreciate it.

Stick with the "simple" definitions. They suit you.

[Dave G. 0]

Someone way back stated something about fly fishing only as well. And that fly fishermen of all fishermen tend to show some respect for the wildlife we fish for. I'm sure this is why areas are designated fly fishing only. Places like Northern Maine, in some waters, may allow artificial lures but as spawn time draws near they change the regulations to fly fishing only. Fly fishermen ,generally speaking ,aren't meat fishing in those waters but they also have a one fish bag limit or catch and release only regs running at the time of the change. In some areas year round.

 

I'm all set with the " is the fish stressed or is it tired theories". How about pressured, in the sense over fished, over handled, over poached . The fact remains , we have impact, but apparently fly fishermen as a general group have the least impact on fish stocks and their decline.

 

On another note, I've seen some fish management policies that don't help a thing !!

[Cold 0]

All of the fly fishing only areas in PA are also Catch & Release-mandatory, and the ones that allow all artificial lures are Delayed Harvest (C&R until 6/15 thru Labor day), which would seem to agree with your assessment.

The PA authorities make plenty of decisions that annoy me, but they're between a rock and a hard place, as their revenue comes from license sales, and the majority want lots of stocked fish everywhere...but their mission statement is to preserve and improve habitat...which often means that they can only do one or the other.

 

Of course, like any other government agency, they also like to increase fees at the drop of a hat.

[Dave G. 0]

Yeah Cold, an example of lousy policy is as such: change out a dam and make it a minor power station ( put in a little hydro build the structure up higher and flood a reservoir above it ). In the process of this and from there after state there is no fish ladder. Right after that took place spawning salmon could be seen trying to run the impossible center slew way during spawn time only to fail. Yet indeed there was a ladder but the ladder had no wooden gates installed and did not run water. So the salmon could not run up river if their spawning waters were above the dam, not any longer. The same for spring smelt runs. Not to mention now smelt from above got sucked in and chewed up in the turbine. So amazingly fast forward about 15 years and they are all appalled, have to do studies to figure out why salmon are shrinking in numbers, shrinking in size to discover two things. Not enough smelt to feed on and not enough spawning salmon. No clue Sherlock ! The answer to that ? Stock some of each rather than open the fish way or the ladder.

 

Now to their credit someone stocked bass, and someone introduced white perch on the other side of the lake down river . Illegally, and they don't want them spreading. Ok I get it and I'm no scientist but when salmon run to spawn it's late Sept and into Oct. The waters have cooled so bass aren't following if they even could and I doubt White Perch can either. And the spring smelt run is April, sometimes up rivers with still a coating of ice on them. My call ? I'd let both runs happen and close the gates in between as one choice anyway..And give the smelt a path down stream besides the turbine grinder during that season. I'm just Joe Blo who fishes there but the site of it all is so obvious you shouldn't need any study.

[JSzymczyk 0]

Have you ever caught the same fish twice? I can recall many fish that me and my buddies have caught more than once.

Way back in ancient history I found a relatively untapped smallmouth fishery up in New Brunswick. The fishing was magical in late May / early June. It was nothing to catch

40 good bass on streamers and deer hair bugs in a few hours before dark. I only got to fish it for two seasons. Anyway...

 

I brought a close friend and gave him a black/olive woolly bugger which was a very productive fly. There were literally no other people fishing this area, and I tied my woolly buggers in a distinctive fashion.

 

He hooked and broke off a very large bass. Two days later I was back and caught the largest smallmouth I've caught on fly tackle, 22 inches, and it had my woolly bugger which he broke off, in it's jaw.

[Poopdeck 0]

I find all this talk about fish "respect" comical. It's merely a term bandied about so guilty feeling anglers can feel better or more enlightened. If you trick me with a false offering of fur and impaled a hook in my lip I would kick you arse just as soon as you removed the hook from my face regardless of how much "respect" you showed me.

 

I use to hunt during a time in my life where I needed to if I wanted meat. My life is much better now and I, along with 90% of the population, no longer need to hunt for my food. I stopped hunting, that's respect.

[mikechell 0]

Yeah, Poopdeck ... but if I accidentally hook your ear during a bad cast, then the respect I show you will determine the outcome. If I keep yanking until the hook tears free, I'll expect a violent action in return. If I apologize and help you get the hook out as painlessly as possible, we'll probably end as friends.

Treating a fish with respect has nothing to do with guilt. I feel absolutely no guilt when I hook, land and release a fish. But I respect the creature of nature enough to be as gentle as possible and to return it to the water as quickly as possible.

I don't have the same respect for Gar, which over populate the waterways of Florida, and more likely kill it than not.

 

I have more respect for most of the fish I catch than I do for most of the people I know.