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FattyMatt

bendback question

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Sounds like you understand the technique & principle quite well. However, IMO that hook is bent too much. The idea is to change the materials angle, not the hook point angle, which bending too much does.

 

Mustad made a bendback hook (34005) years ago & they bent them too much. Most folks who were tying bendbacks then bent their own using the 34007. Only need a slight bend & then only about a 1/4" behind the hook eye, depending on the hook size. I stopped bending them all together, as I found it wasn't needed if I paid attention to proportions & materials positioning. Of course, if you add barbells, it creates the debate of whether it's a bendback or a Clouser Minnow. IMO, it matters not either way as long as they serve the purpose & the fish eat them. laugh.png

 

I've posted these before. Some have brass barbells, the rest have no added weight. They all will invert. The bottom 3 are Clousers, tied with all the material on the inside of the hook.

 

100_4663_zps3041ab09.jpg

 

Here's a fly someone sent me. I've seen commercially made flies with hooks bent like this. Don't know who made this one. Should be obvious the hooks bent too much.

100_4805_zps3f670c36.jpg

 

Not sure where I got this one, but it's closer to being "correct" as far as the hook bend. I didn't bend the hook or tie the fly.

100_4806_zps210d9fbe.jpg

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Sounds like you understand the technique & principle quite well. However, IMO that hook is bent too much. The idea is to change the materials angle, not the hook point angle, which bending too much does.

 

Mustad made a bendback hook (34005) years ago & they bent them too much. Most folks who were tying bendbacks then bent their own using the 34007. Only need a slight bend & then only about a 1/4" behind the hook eye, depending on the hook size. I stopped bending them all together, as I found it wasn't needed if I paid attention to proportions & materials positioning. Of course, if you add barbells, it creates the debate of whether it's a bendback or a Clouser Minnow. IMO, it matters not either way as long as they serve the purpose & the fish eat them. laugh.png

 

I've posted these before. Some have brass barbells, the rest have no added weight. They all will invert. The bottom 3 are Clousers, tied with all the material on the inside of the hook.

 

100_4663_zps3041ab09.jpg

 

Here's a fly someone sent me. I've seen commercially made flies with hooks bent like this. Don't know who made this one. Should be obvious the hooks bent too much.

100_4805_zps3f670c36.jpg

 

Not sure where I got this one, but it's closer to being "correct" as far as the hook bend. I didn't bend the hook or tie the fly.

100_4806_zps210d9fbe.jpg

That one on the bottom is one of mine I tied for a swap a while back. I agree completely with what you said about not really needing to ben the hooks, especially if you use buoyant material like buck tail for the wing and keep your proportions correct. I also agree that people tend to bend them too much which can weaken he hook. I like to bend them this way because the way the hook rides on the angle a bit gives a nice profile to the fly (although it probably doesn't really make much difference). I always bend just to the point where I feel the hook begin to bend and stop immediately. It really doesn't take much pressure

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That one on the bottom is one of mine I tied for a swap a while back.

 

I'm going to put that one in a bag & mark it so I know who tied it. Thanks! When I said it was "closer" it was because it's difficult to tell how much the hook is actually bent after it's been dressed. Even an unbent hook doesn't have a straight line hook set angle. Bend the shank too much & it makes that angle even more pronounced. Sure, a hook that's bent too much will still catch some fish, even that one I posted. But I like my chances better keeping it closer to the factory shape, or if bending it, only bending it slightly.

 

BTW, I intend to copy your fly & fish them first chance I get to head to the coast! wink.png

 

 

I always bend just to the point where I feel the hook begin to bend and stop immediately. It really doesn't take much pressure

 

Your description of how you bent them is just as I did it. I have bent some hooks too much too. That's one reason I stopped doing it. Another reason is I still use plated hooks & they break when bent. Also, "better" stainless hooks tend to break too. I think I read something someone wrote in an article, (Lefty Kreh maybe) that said the hooks didn't need to be bent for tying bendbacks. After trying it, turned out they were correct & I've been tying them that way ever since.

 

 

Has anyone tried a worm hook for bendbacks? I've tied some pike flies with them and they work out very nice for riding point up.

post-47911-0-79447400-1455841598_thumb.j

 

Yes, but I don't call them bendbacks since I tie "bendbacks" on the straight shank hooks. The worm hooks are a very good style for tying on, so I agree with you, & they work very well for various streamer patterns. I have some discontinued Owner "Longneck" hooks that were sold for plastic baits, yet they work great for bendback style flies. When they discontinued them, shops started discounting the price & I bought a bunch. I'm always checking out such hooks for tying bass & saltwater flies. smile.png

 

I'll take a pic of the Longneck hooks over the weekend & post it.

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Took a pic this morning of those Owner hooks. IMO, this is an ideal bendback hook. Only downside to it is it's a black nickel finish, and ideally a tinned finish or stainless would be better for saltwater use. Still, they hold up quite well, and certainly are an excellent quality hook. Notice where the hook point is relative to the hook eye. When we bend a straight shank hook, particularly too much, we lose that and the point tends to drag rather than penetrate.

 

These hooks have a small plastic "stopper" on the shank which can be used for propping up materials if desired, or can be easily removed. There's a barb on the shank just behind the hook eye, but they don't pose a problem for tying. I simply tie over them.

 

If you can find this hook, since it's discontinued, it's worthwhile to obtain. I have them in sizes from 2, to 3/0. smile.png

 

100_5536_zpswtsopo0k.jpg

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OK, so here's the flies I'm having issues with turning over hpu. I'm at the point where I'm just going to tie these on a 60 degree hook because I can not get this fly to turn over with bead chain.

 

For this fly, I've mildly bent it back, pointed the horn materials upwards, put lead stripping on the belly and changed the bead chain orientation all over the hook. I can't win, very frustrating.

 

How would you get this fly to turn over?

post-51578-0-60216300-1456452878_thumb.jpg

post-51578-0-47065100-1456452889_thumb.jpg

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I checked through some of my non-fly fishing catalogs and 60 degree jig hooks are hard to find in the sizes and quantities you're looking for. Also they won't be stainless or tin plated for salt water. Feather-Craft has the 60 degree jig hooks in the sizes you're looking for Partridge, TMC and Gamakatsu.

How old is that catalog? Don't have em online

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Looking at your photo, I think your problem might be in the length of your materials.

post-51578-0-47065100-1456452889.jpg

The legs and feelers will trail the falling weight. Since all your weight is centered on the hook, and your legs and feelers are on top of of the hook, the hook turns and falls point down.

You could try orienting the legs and feelers so they more readily flow "up" over the hook bend.

Or change the bead chain for lead dumbbell eyes.

But honestly, with the weedguards you have one there, I wouldn't worry about it falling point down. Bouncing off those weedguards imparts so good action to flies like yours. I think you get more than a fair share of hits on those if you put them in front of the fish.

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Tidewater,

 

I found one pack of those Owner Longnecks, and I really liked tying on them. Too bad they are discontinued.

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Yes the whole objective is to make this a flats fly, so adding more lead is not an option. I don't know if the pic is misleading but the legs are coming out of the sides.

 

I do agree the weed guard keeps it off the bottom and if need be, I can tie this fly hook down or get 60 degree jig hooks.

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You have no weight significantly off the shank axis and all of your water-resistant materials are either along the shank or on the wrong side of it.

 

The two factors that are most important in point-up flies are absent from those ties.

 

If weight is out of the question, then the only thing you can do is design the fly in a way that puts water resistant materials away from the shank on the point side and eliminate the same at the shank.

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You have no weight significantly off the shank axis and all of your water-resistant materials are either along the shank or on the wrong side of it.

 

The two factors that are most important in point-up flies are absent from those ties.

 

If weight is out of the question, then the only thing you can do is design the fly in a way that puts water resistant materials away from the shank on the point side and eliminate the same at the shank.

Agreed. Veverkas mantis shrimp is a very popular fly that doesn't swim as it is intended. With bead chain, it rides upside down. I'm trying to keep the pattern but eliminate the lead. I thought bending the fly back would offset the lack of lead. It hasn't. I've changed position of the eyes and bent more extreme, still didn't work.

 

I've broken down and bought some #4 and #6 60 degree jig hooks to make this pattern work.

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Matt, I can't get the pics to enlarge enough to see much detail, but am leaning towards what Cold & Mike is saying. If I was you, I would try the same fly on the jig hooks & see how that works for keeping the hook point up.

 

Did you try moving the bead chain back a bit on the hook shank? With the bead chain being lighter than barbells, tying it up near the hook eye, doesn't really have a lot of effect on the center of mass IMO. Of course, they may simply not be heavy enough anyway. You could possibly try a bigger size bead chain too. Perhaps in stainless which should be slightly heavier.

 

I understand your desire to keep this fly lighter for flats use, and if it was me, I think I would try brass barbells in place of the bead chain to gain a little more weight to invert the hook, and still not be as heavy as using lead barbells. If you've already tried it, then IMO the jig hooks might be the next possible fix to the problem.

 

Utyer, I really like them too and wish they hadn't been discontinued! I grab them when I find some, especially in size 2 or 1.

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maybe you can bend the point to line it up; sort of turn it into a semi-circle hook. or maybe take a mustad circle streamer hook. bend it back then uncircle the tip a tad.six of one or half dozen of another.

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