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Are these flys, and would you fish them with a fly rod

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Poopy.... it was in my studies of ichthyology that I first encountered what I call "Lumpers" and "Splitters". Some want to lump all the spacially distributed varieties of a type of fish into a single specied (call the various groups varieties), while others want to consider each of them to be a distinct species. I run into the lumper/splitter phenomenon everywhere I go... even here.

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Poopy.... it was in my studies of ichthyology that I first encountered what I call "Lumpers" and "Splitters". Some want to lump all the spacially distributed varieties of a type of fish into a single specied (call the various groups varieties), while others want to consider each of them to be a distinct species. I run into the lumper/splitter phenomenon everywhere I go... even here.

Aaaaaah, ummmm, aaaaaaaaah, okay. I'm gonna have to read that some more.

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To me it is very simple. I wouldn't, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't! It only means I shouldn't. So long as it is within the rules to fish the way you are, I have no issue with you doing whatever you want. Here we have both laws and rules. Some means of fishing are actually illegal for certain species, and there are legally enforceable seasons. Most water is private, and you pay the owner for the right to fish, either directly or indirectly. The owner sets the rules for the water he owns.

If you break either you not only face the penalty, but endanger others access to the water. It is the duty of everyone fishing within the restrictions to report those who don't, so that access for the majority, who obey the rules, is maintained.

 

Other than that don't ask me; I'm in no better place to make the judgement for you than anyone else. I would suggest though, that if you have to ask the question, you shouldn't be doing it. Is asking for others approval a salve for your conscience?

 

Cheers,

C.

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Crackaig, here in Tennessee, the state owns the wildlife no matter where it is living- public land or private land. To hunt or fish private land, you obviously need the permission of the landowner. What you are expounding on seems like Great Britain with its day ticket fishing. Am I right? If so, tell my wife, She won't believe it.

I have fished with a flyrod, a cork on the tippet and a worm on a hook while catching bluegill. It works but hard to double haul.

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I'd fish them for sure! Me personally I would careless who said or thought what about me fishing something like those. As long as I was having a good time and catching fish then it's all god in my opinion. Nice looking flies or lures whatever you wish to call them...

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Yes John, I'm in the far north east of Scotland. Day ticket prices vary from a pound or to up to the most expensive I've heard of at £14 000:00. Depending on where and what you fish for. There is a little public water, but it is a little. You also need a rod licence in England and Wales. When it became national in 1990, if memory serves, it was £12 for the year. The equivalent licence today is over £70.

 

Cheers,

C.

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Crackaig, many thanks for the reply and the information. We had a Trout Unlimited chapter meeting and the purchase or day ticket practice was briefly mentioned. Our speaker was telling of fishing in Canada and other places where the rivers were on private land. One place he mentioned in the USA changed from a free venue to a venue where you had to hire a guide from the lodge. This would be a sizeable outlay of $$$ to fish this particular place.

I'm with add147 here. Who cares what others think about my lures/flies/bait and methods I'm using. The main thing is to have fun. Catching fish is just a bonus for spending the day on the water, either along or with friends. Even if I don't catch fish, I'm a winner every time!

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Poopy.... it was in my studies of ichthyology that I first encountered what I call "Lumpers" and "Splitters". Some want to lump all the spacially distributed varieties of a type of fish into a single specied (call the various groups varieties), while others want to consider each of them to be a distinct species. I run into the lumper/splitter phenomenon everywhere I go... even here.

It's even worse when you get into herpetology and entomology.... don't even get started onto the concept of subspecies.

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It's abut n interesting area of study, but I figure the critters don't care what we call them... and they breed with whomever they like, or they don't. As John Prine said: that's the way the world goes 'round.

 

I guess the flies/lures don't care much what we call them either, and neither do the fish. Only the wardens care.

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Well, like they said ...

Castability. Now, I get a zen thing out of casting a fly rod, so if it casts with a fly rod I'll probably go with it. I grew up throwing small fly rod flatfish and colorado spinners, so as a youngster I accepted this as normative. Dad was solely a fly fisher (I eyed with interest the old bait and spin cast rods tucked away in a corner of the garage, and the huge mounted crappie hanging on the living room wall, but by the time I came along it was all fly fishing and about the trout), but he found he could tease a strike with the flatfish. You couldn't cast them with a spin or baitcast though. Since mom was not really into fishing but wanted to be a companion, dad got her a fly rod, and she attached a worm hook and worm (live) to the leader and sat on the bank of pools. I found, too, after rescuing a spincaster from the garage, that I could throw a little black gnat a mile using a bobber a couple feet above the fly, and maybe a little split shot. I could hit rising trout way out beyond my fly casting range. So, my boyhood view of fishing was likened to that of the plot of "River Why" - a sometimes bizarre mix of pure and anything goes, and I never spent a minute wondering about it.

I don't use the spinners or flatfish today, seem satisfied with what I do. I have drawn some lines for myself, which have nothing to do with an opinion on what is a fly, they just define what feels good to do. I don't do bait, I guess that's where it starts. I stick with whatever I can create with fur foam feathers and hair, complemented with flash, and of course I use chenille. I have sort of an intuitive barometer that warns me when I'm going too far into manufactured parts, like cut wings and legs and plastic insect bodies. The craw claws are about as far as I'll go using manufactured stuff. I go back and forth with natural hair vs synthetic, but I tend to stick with natural. Right now I'm on an elk hair kick.

I doubt I'll get into tube flies at all. I do tie an occasional crease fly for bass, but even there I stick to the same materials formula as for my trout.

​When I float bass river, my companions are fly rod, baitcaster, spinning rod. I use either what I need given weight of lure/fly, or simply what pleasures me. I get immense pleasure from throwing my rods, mostly from the fly rod. It just feels good.

I also take great satisfaction in catching fish on flies I tie, so the more the fly is my creation, the more satisfaction I get.

I do pay attention to the official rules on special regulation waters, that define what a fly or lure is for any particular stretch of water.

My CCT fur baitfish vs Rappala - if one a fly and one a lure? Do I respectfully but cynically refer to a Muskie "fly" as a "fly?"

Shoot, I dunno. Don't care. Since to me a fly is one of the pesky little black things stuck on my kitchen flypaper (I don't empty the kitchen scrap barrel to the compost heap as often as I should, so little critters take hold in the kitchen sometimes ....) it makes it difficult for me to relate the concept of a fly to a lot of stuff I tie for my fly rod. So, maybe "fly" is getting a little outmoded, but with such a rich history behind it we should probably just give it a respectful nod and go on about our business. No need for a naming convention.


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Well, now that that's settled, let me ask an academic question: we know that at some point in history someone ran out of live bait and started using feathers or some such stuff to simulate what the fish were eating. He or she didn't use a baitcasting rig or an open faced spinning rig... those came later. He or she tied it onto a hook, tied the hook to a line (made of knotted horse tail hairs) and tried to throw it out as far into the water as possible.

 

What I wonder is what he called it, and when did someone come up with calling it (1) a lure, or (2) a bait, or (3) a fly?

 

What is the earliest documentation in which it is referred to as a fly?

 

That is the question.

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What is the earliest documentation in which it is referred to as a fly?

 

That is the question.

 

 

I've actually read in some books before (wish I could remember which one but it's been many many years since I read it) anyway I remember that there was mention of Romans in the 2nd century using feathers and wool on hooks. So to the best of my knowledge that's the earliest I have ever heard anyone talk about "flies". I don't know if they actually used the term fly at that time though.

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Steve.... you put me on the track. Here's a document on Fly Fishing History that cites a 200 A.D. writing, from a Roman, that actually used the term Fly. http:/flyfishinghistory.com/aelian.htm

 

According to the document here, this is supposed to be the first writing about fly fishing. It isn't the first time anyone called the lure a "fly" but I guest we'll never know.

 

If you're interested, here's a page where they attempt to duplicate what the first fly was trying to simulate: http://flyfishinghistory.com/macedonian_fly.htm

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Fly fishing in Greece likely goes back long before Aelian. He was a library rat who was drawing completely on other earlier written sources, many such as Aristotle and Herodotus that were 5-600 years before his time. Unfortunately he does not mention his source here so it could really belong to any period, but is likely Hellenistic since he mentions Thessaloniki, which was founded in 315 BC. It is difficult to say if they were fly fishing in the strict sense of casting artificials that imitated bugs since Aelian only says that the fish ate bugs but that they hit the "flies" because of they were attracted to their color, so the first known fly was an attractor pattern not an imitative one. He never refers to the lure as a fly, he calls is a "dolos" which is a word literally meaning deception or trickery, but also used as a trap to catch something (i.e. a lure).

 

The translation from the page above is a bit misleading with the mention of midges. The Greek word is "anthedones" literally meaning "of the bloom" or "flowery ones". It is usually used for bees in general but since Aelian also mentions honey-bees (melittai) right after, these likely refer to bumble bees but I suppose could refer to any bug associated with flowers.

 

For what its worth, the method Aelian describes is ironically basically the same as tenkara, so it is funny to see "traditionalist" criticizing tenkara as "cane pole fishing" when it fact it is more closely related to the earliest known form of fly fishing.

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