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Fly Tying
Shaun thomas

Wooly buggers belly side up

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Dammit Mark, how you do that??? I get up earliest of all of ya; NEW FRICKIN YORK STATE!

 

Except maybe guys like Mogup even a little farther east than me.

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6 hours ago, mikechell said:

it appears there's a light bend to the hook shank. . . .  Or your using hooks that aren't straight to begin with . . .

+1

It looks like there's an upside down v-shaped bump mid-shank, almost like it's a popper hook you're using... 

spacer.pngNot that exaggerated. My guess is its an uneven thread base, in that shape. 

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I'm with several of you guys on this. I tie my buggers with bead heads and often add a few turns of lead wire underneath. I expect, and want my flies to ride hook up. I find I have a better hooking percentage, the hooks are in better places in the fish's mouth (corner or upper jaw), and there's the added benefit of less snags. 

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5 hours ago, chugbug27 said:

+1

It looks like there's an upside down v-shaped bump mid-shank, almost like it's a popper hook you're using... 

spacer.pngNot that exaggerated. My guess is its an uneven thread base, in that shape. 

I am using a kamasan b830 size 8 I have a few turns of .010 led wire in the middle, using Uni thread 8/0 to lock in down.  My hooks are straight! 

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Although I would agree with all the comments above that Fly position is somewhat irrelevant with buggers, don’t underestimate the influence of your tippet on the fly position in the water. A stiff tippet (3X -0X) tied with a clinch knot will transfer that stiffness to the fly.  Any natural twist in the tippet will be reflected in the fly’s position in the water.  If you are using a clinch knot, experiment by tying the knot starting both from the top of the hook eye and the underside.  See if the two different starting positions makes a difference.  Then try a non-slip loop knot to see if that makes a difference.  The loop knot gives the fly more independence from any twist in the tippet.

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59 minutes ago, mikemac1 said:

Although I would agree with all the comments above that Fly position is somewhat irrelevant with buggers, don’t underestimate the influence of your tippet on the fly position in the water. A stiff tippet (3X -0X) tied with a clinch knot will transfer that stiffness to the fly.  Any natural twist in the tippet will be reflected in the fly’s position in the water.  If you are using a clinch knot, experiment by tying the knot starting both from the top of the hook eye and the underside.  See if the two different starting positions makes a difference.  Then try a non-slip loop knot to see if that makes a difference.  The loop knot gives the fly more independence from any twist in the tippet.

That's a good point, mikemac1, something that is often overlooked.  

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9 hours ago, Shaun thomas said:

I am using a kamasan b830 size 8 I have a few turns of .010 led wire in the middle, using Uni thread 8/0 to lock in down.  My hooks are straight! 

I suspect this is a contributing factor.  The traditional use of lead wire on this fly, other than to add extra weight, is to help lock the bead up against the eye of the hook.

The closer that weight is placed to the bend of the hook the more it will negate the keeling effect of the hook point and bend.  This is not really a good or bad thing per se depending on what you want the fly to do.  If you weight the front the fly it will dive nose first when you pause your retrieve.  If you have it in the middle then the hook shank will stay perpendicular(ish) to the surface of the water.  If you back weight the fly it will sink butt first and may also kick the butt around to the side some on a pause.  Weight placement alone does not determine all of this.  What kind of material you use to tie the fly and how it is oriented also makes a huge difference.  Keeping most of the material above or below the hook shank affects fly orientation dramatically. How heavy your tippet is and what kind of knot you use also can have a dramatic effect.  Under what conditions you are fishing also makes a difference, I've found that swinging a fly can make a fly invert as compared to stripping the same fly in still water.

As an example and a bit of a tangent. A bait fish pattern that is very low drag but has a little heft to it that is tied onto light/flexible tippet and a loop knot will dart to the side/up/down if you fish it correctly in a no/low current situation.  Flys like that take some practice, design, and deliberate application of specific materials.

  You can have elements of a fly that work against each other for better or worse. Adding weight through lead or hook weight to a traditional dry fly is usually counter productive.  Adding a touch of weight to the nose of a diving fly can help it dive as compared to slide across the top of the water.  You can also use materials and weight to counteract how the other affects movement and orientation.

As others have pointed out with a fly like the woolly bugger that is tied in the round, I don't think it makes much of a difference in regards to how fishable the fly is.  So unless you want the hook point riding point up or adjust how the fly behaves I'd use the lead wire to help lock the bead in place at the front of the fly.  However I would encourage you play around with the variables so you can understand and control what a fly does.  Cheers.

Swamp

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On 4/23/2020 at 11:02 AM, Mark Knapp said:

I would take the deal, in fact, I would try to duplicate it. I think that flies with the hook bend up are preferable to bend-down fly patterns for two reasons. You can achieve better hook-ups with the bend-up. And, they are less likely to snag.

This

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3 hours ago, DarrellP said:

This

I that case I'd switch to a 60* jig hook.  I've switched most of my flies that I want to ride hook point up to this style of hook.  Just the tiniest amount of weight will really force point up orientation.  That is an advantage when you don't want to dredge the bottom. I haven't tied anything really tiny that way but I don't see an issue if you can find the hooks.

Swamp

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