Latest Law look-alike vise

[SalarMan 0]

Most interesting phone conversation with Stone River Outfitters that just ended.

I spoke with a chap named Mike and he informed me the following...In the last 18 months/2 years not one of the TRV vises they've had in the shop would allow for a hook larger than a 2/0 thin wire hook into the jaws.

And that settles that for me!!! VERY DISAPPOINTING. I'm lucky enough to have a Renzetti Master and Cotarelli T-Rex sitting on my tying bench so I'm not exactly suffering.

As my friend John McLain would say...it is what it is.

[Toothy 0]

15 minutes ago, SalarMan said:

Most interesting phone conversation with Stone River Outfitters that just ended.

I spoke with a chap named Mike and he informed me the following...In the last 18 months/2 years not one of the TRV vises they've had in the shop would allow for a hook larger than a 2/0 thin wire hook into the jaws.

And that settles that for me!!! VERY DISAPPOINTING. I'm lucky enough to have a Renzetti Master and Cotarelli T-Rex sitting on my tying bench so I'm not exactly suffering.

As my friend John McLain would say...it is what it is.

Does this mean that the grooves meant to stabilize larger hooks are just milled too deeply on the models they have?

[DFoster 0]

16 minutes ago, Toothy said:

Does this mean that the grooves meant to stabilize larger hooks are just milled too deeply on the models they have?

I know that I tried the really large classic salmon fly hooks Salarman sent me in my TRV and the largest did not fit.  Personally I never tie bigger than a #4 so my vise works perfect for me, however if you need to tie really large stuff I would say look elsewhere.

[SalarMan 0]

"Look elsewhere" is correct Dean. Sad because the original LAW was capable of handling an incredible variety of hooks.

I have a friend who sold a LAW for a long time buddy of his last year. While he had it in hand he tried a number of different hooks, and believe it or not the vise held a #28 with no problem and a 10/0 with the same ease. What I don't understand is if FNF, HMH, CAE and others are copying the LAW...why can't they duplicate that ability in their vises? It can't be THAT difficult.

Like I said, I'm not suffering. I've tied on a TRV and loved that vise...but it just isn't meant to be I guess. Maybe I'll hit the lottery and just buy a LAW 😎

[SalarMan 0]

Nathan (Toothy) and I have been having a running conversation regarding the vises in question via pm's.

I am posting a closeup photo from 4 or 5 years ago of how a salmon hook is mounted in the vise to tie a classic salmon fly. The hook is from custom hook maker Ronn Lucas, Sr. located in Oregon. The plastic you see around the hook is to protect the finish since these flies are tied for display and any damage to the hook is a no no. Plus at $15 apiece and up...well need I say more.

I believe the added thickness of the plastic is what keeps the TRV vise from being a vise I can use for tying these flies.

Comments welcome of course.

 

[Toothy 0]

Thanks for posting this image George! Now I get it! I guess I just demonstrated my woeful ignorance of all thing classic salmon fly! 
I wonder if the difference is the cam lever on the Renzetti vs. the hand screw on the TRV…

[SalarMan 0]

Nathan - No worries on the "woeful ignorance" regarding tying classic salmon flies. It is estimated there is only a few thousand of us pursuing this hobby worldwide.

Now...I am going to go on a bit of a rant about these vises, and if this site is followed by any of the manufacturers I will probably be blacklisted - LOL

In 2019 my friend Gordeaux brokered the sale of a LAW vise for another long time friend of his. While he had the vise in hand he tried a few things to test the vise's capabilities. It held a size #28 hook with no problem. It also held a size #10/0 with the same ease. So...here is what both disappoints and pisses me off about the copies!!

We have CAE Engineering, FNF Talon, HMH TRV & Ekich DamaSeal vises, which are all copies of the LAW, and there may be others I am unaware of. I cannot speak for the Ekich at $3500 a pop, but the rest just appall me. Here are people copying the most ergonomic and tyer friendly vise design ever from Lawrence Waldron and they can't get it right. If you are going to make a copy of this design why does it seem impossible to make one that has the hook size holding range for the full spectrum of tyers, ala the LAW...as in a legitimate and  total copy!! After all he never patented the design...so go for it. I would think any idiot with a ruler and micrometer along with a pad, pencil and camera could get it right. The best of the bunch is the HMH, which I truly believe has (had) the potential to be the best vise on the planet. I loved tying on one, but its limitations forced me to return it for a refund.

The original is too rich for my blood, so I have given up on owning one of these copies simply because they will not fill my needs and I don't believe they ever will. Kind of sad actually.

Sorry for the rant...but I had to speak my mind on this one........

[Mark Knapp 0]

4 hours ago, SalarMan said:

Nathan - No worries on the "woeful ignorance" regarding tying classic salmon flies. It is estimated there is only a few thousand of us pursuing this hobby worldwide.

Now...I am going to go on a bit of a rant about these vises, and if this site is followed by any of the manufacturers I will probably be blacklisted - LOL

In 2019 my friend Gordeaux brokered the sale of a LAW vise for another long time friend of his. While he had the vise in hand he tried a few things to test the vise's capabilities. It held a size #28 hook with no problem. It also held a size #10/0 with the same ease. So...here is what both disappoints and pisses me off about the copies!!

We have CAE Engineering, FNF Talon, HMH TRV & Ekich DamaSeal vises, which are all copies of the LAW, and there may be others I am unaware of. I cannot speak for the Ekich at $3500 a pop, but the rest just appall me. Here are people copying the most ergonomic and tyer friendly vise design ever from Lawrence Waldron and they can't get it right. If you are going to make a copy of this design why does it seem impossible to make one that has the hook size holding range for the full spectrum of tyers, ala the LAW...as in a legitimate and  total copy!! After all he never patented the design...so go for it. I would think any idiot with a ruler and micrometer along with a pad, pencil and camera could get it right. The best of the bunch is the HMH, which I truly believe has (had) the potential to be the best vise on the planet. I loved tying on one, but its limitations forced me to return it for a refund.

The original is too rich for my blood, so I have given up on owning one of these copies simply because they will not fill my needs and I don't believe they ever will. Kind of sad actually.

Sorry for the rant...but I had to speak my mind on this one........

I can't speak about all of the vises you speak of, I can't even speak for all of the HMH Versions, but I can tell you that my HMH TRV holds size 28 to 9/0 hooks very well, I posted a picture of me bending a 9/0 hook in my TRV. I have tied 11/0 hooks in my TRV too, but it doesn't hold them with as much confidence as it does the 9/0 hooks. (the 9/0 and 11/0 hooks were heavy wire Owner hooks)

I'm not sure if or why HMH would change the jaw design in later models, mine is fine.

[SalarMan 0]

2 hours ago, Mark Knapp said:

I can't speak about all of the vises you speak of, I can't even speak for all of the HMH Versions, but I can tell you that my HMH TRV holds size 28 to 9/0 hooks very well, I posted a picture of me bending a 9/0 hook in my TRV. I have tied 11/0 hooks in my TRV too, but it doesn't hold them with as much confidence as it does the 9/0 hooks. (the 9/0 and 11/0 hooks were heavy wire Owner hooks)

I'm not sure if or why HMH would change the jaw design in later models, mine is fine.

Most interesting Mark.

If you hear a window being broken in the middle of the night...it is me coming for your vise.😁😎😁 

If what you describe were true for all of the TRV's I would own 2 of them and nothing else. If you'd like a newer model I'll buy one and send it to you for a trade😀⁉️⁉️

[Mark Knapp 0]

1 hour ago, SalarMan said:

Most interesting Mark.

If you hear a window being broken in the middle of the night...it is me coming for your vise.😁😎😁 

If what you describe were true for all of the TRV's I would own 2 of them and nothing else. If you'd like a newer model I'll buy one and send it to you for a trade😀⁉️⁉️

Here it is holding an 11/0 Owner. That's big wire. It miked out at .091" and it's 3 1/2 inches long. I did not pad the jaws as a presentation, classic tier would and it did scratch the hook some but I don't think the pike will mind.

 

[SalarMan 0]

I'll keep this short and simple...most impressive!!!  Both fly and vise.

[DFoster 0]

2 hours ago, SalarMan said:

I'll keep this short and simple...most impressive!!!  Both fly and vise.

George here is the issue with really large hooks fitting in the LAW copies.  My vise will hold a #28 but when you start getting into the really large stuff the jaws will only open to a point where the outer jaw hits the inner jaw.  See the photo of my TRV below.  As an engineer I can say the solution is to lengthen the jaws which will increase the angle and span of the opening.   I'm guessing HMH and the rest of the copies are aiming their vises at the more standard size flies and longer jaws would cost more to produce. 

[SalarMan 0]

1 hour ago, DFoster said:

George here is the issue with really large hooks fitting in the LAW copies.  My vise will hold a #28 but when you start getting into the really large stuff the jaws will only open to a point where the outer jaw hits the inner jaw.  See the photo of my TRV below.  As an engineer I can say the solution is to lengthen the jaws which will increase the angle and span of the opening.   I'm guessing HMH and the rest of the copies are aiming their vises at the more standard size flies and longer jaws would cost more to produce. 

Dean - What I was thinking, would it be possible to CAREFULLY/GENTLY file the area behind the adjusting screw with that allowing the jaws to move further apart at the tip end. It shouldn't take much to open the jaws enough for my needs and hopefully not in any way weaken the setup structurally. 

The first one I owned would hold a 10/0 hook but nothing smaller than a size 8. The next one was the opposite. It would allow nothing larger than a 2/0 into the jaws ala todays versions. What is the vintage of the one in the photo?

[Mark Knapp 0]

10 minutes ago, SalarMan said:

Dean - What I was thinking, would it be possible to CAREFULLY/GENTLY file the area behind the adjusting screw with that allowing the jaws to move further apart at the tip end. It shouldn't take much to open the jaws enough for my needs and hopefully not in any way weaken the setup structurally. 

The first one I owned would hold a 10/0 hook but nothing smaller than a size 8. The next one was the opposite. It would allow nothing larger than a 2/0 into the jaws ala todays versions. What is the vintage of the one in the photo?

The jaws are quite hard and would require grinding instead of filing, but yes, that would do it without any change in structural integrity or effectiveness.

[SalarMan 0]

2 minutes ago, Mark Knapp said:

The jaws are quite hard and would require grinding instead of filing, but yes, that would do it without any change in structural integrity or effectiveness.

I'm talking filing both of the jaws Mark. Perhaps 1/32" on each. I would worry about grinding. Despite great care, and I am very good with my hands, I would worry about the metal temperature rising just a bit too much and reducing the temper of the jaws. Filing would be SLOW, but still maybe the way to go.

You've given me food for thought.