What makes a deceiver???

[Guest]

I'm wanting to tie up a shad imitation deceiver but I have been doing some searching and have found countless variations of the lefty deceiver. My question is what exactly makes a Lefty's Deceiver, most of the patterns that I have seen seem completely different from each other.

 

From what I can gather a basic deceiver uses hackle to form the profile and then a bucktail collar, is this right? Most that I have seen use at least 6 hackles are these tied in different positions on the shank on the hook or are they tied on top of each other?

 

FYI I plan I trying one on a size 6 or 8 but I figured you saltwater guys have a great deal of knowledge of deceivers.

[Dble Haul 0]

You're pretty spot on with your description. Lefty ties them with 3 pairs of matched saddles, all on top of one another (three per side), and then tied in back near the hook bend. He then puts bucktail on top and on the sides, making 3/4 of a collar. For the throat, he usually uses red krystal flash trimmed so that it doesn't extend past the hook point. Peacock swords can be added on top to help silhouette the pattern, and additional flash can be added in the tail and/or wing. Eyes are optional, but can be painted or stuck on.

 

If you're trying them in smaller sizes, you might do better by using only one or two pairs of hackles for the tail. This way keeps the proportions of the fly correct.

[Dble Haul 0]

Almost forgot....

 

Instead of tying the hackle pairs on the sides of the shank, Lefty ties them on top of the shank near the bend. This can be done by layering the feathers to be used and then dipping them in water to slick them down. It's much easier to tie them on the top this way.

 

Either way you tie them, it helps to put in some sparse buctail first for support.

 

I've fished them with hackles tied on the sides and on top, and the fish don't seem to care. But the hackles tied on top tend to foul less during casting.

 

Your mileage may vary.

[flytyer 0]

Here is a link to an article Lefty wrote about his Deceiver that you might find interesting. He (Lefty) sent me a copy to use on my site. Lefty's Deceiver

 

Lefty's Deceiver is a tying style rather than a specific pattern. Here is an article that I wrote about the differences between the two. Fly Styles

 

The Deceiver is probably the most copied fly in saltwater. If you read the above articles then you understand the differences between a pattern and style.

 

If you look at some of the saltwater patterns on the market now, you will see that there is one example, that stands out from the rest, where someone has taken the Deceiver, changed it slightly, renamed it the Big Eye Baitfish and is given credit for creating a new pattern, along with having this persons name associated with the fly. If you want to investigate this further, you will find that there are several other patterns to this person's credit that have been done in the same manner.

 

I have written several aticles on the "Ethicts" of fly tying and they are available on my site as well.

 

I will let this go unless someone wants to know more and we can start a seperate post about this problem.

Edited December 12, 2003 by flytyer

[Guest]

Will,

You may want to look into tying a half & half which is a collaboration between Lefty and Bob Clouser. It takes the best features of the deceiver and diving minnow and combines them in one fly. They work great in saltwater, I'm sure the Smallmouth will like 'em.

 

TB

[Guest]

Thanks for the info guys, at least I know I have the basic concept.

 

I see what your saying Joe about it being a "style" and not just a "pattern" and the topic is a very interesting one so feel free to share any thoughts with us because it seems your very knowledgable/passionate on the subject.

 

Mark you said it is better to tie the hackle on top of the hook shank and back toward the end of the hook. I'm having a hard time picturing tying them on top of the shank, I'm a little slow sometimes

 

Here is my other problem if I tie the hackle at the bend of the hook since the fly is only gonna be about 2" it doesn't seem like I would be tying in a very long piece of feather, ya know. I thought about tying in some bucktail at the bend and then the hackle about mid shank and the more bucktail above that, think that would work

 

[flytyer 0]

The hackles are tied ontop of the hook shank. As has been noted, it is a LOT easier to tie them on top than the sides.

 

Not trying to promote my site here fellows, but I have a tying lesson on tying on the various types of tails on flies on my site. Here is the lesson. Just go to the section on father tails. Tying on Tails

 

On being passionate on some things, yep, that is one of my areas and I have a tendency to get on my soap box and preach, but not here. This is about helping tie a Deceiver style of fly.

 

If we want to go into the Ethics thing then we can start a new post and rant and rave on it.

 

 

[Guest]

Joe, you and I have talked about the ethics of tying many times before. I don't see anything wrong with giving credit to a tyer for a particular "version" of a style such as a Deceiver as long as it's acknowledged that it's a version and not an original design. As has already been said Lefty's Deceiver is the most copied style, and with good reason, it's the most productive! Anyone who ties Deceivers has versions of their own, but we still have to give Lefty the credit for the great fly style that it is!

 

I have a "Big Eye Baitfish" too, but it's not a Deceiver, it's a topwater fly!

[Guest]

TB,

 

I did find some photos on the half & half and I will defiently be tying a few of those for the Smallie season and looks like it's a perfect combo of two great patterns

 

Joe,

 

No problem bud we appreciate your information and you got some great content over there(I actually just added a link to your site up at the top of the site under "Friends of FlyTyingForum.com").

 

Anyway that defiently clears things up a little for me and that does look easier, for some reason I wasn't even thinking about stripping off all the fibers and tying it in by the stem, that should be something even I could do. Great info!

 

I will be sure to show you guys my results!

[Philly 0]

I've tied some small decievers and they can be a pain in the butt. For something about 2 inches long I'd use something like Polar Fiber. It self tapering, holds its shape in the water, and if you tie using white you can use permanent markers to get the shad colors right, and add that eye spot. Plus its easier to tie.

[Guest]

This is a good topic and I agree with Joe B. about this... I think it's fine to copy a fly... even name a fly...so long as you say where you got it... Like calling it a "Variation" of Lefty's deciever... things like that.

[flytyer 0]

Ok, here we go.

 

i see nothng wrong with anyone doing a variation of a particular fly or fly style. All of us have done it and as has said, as long as you say that it is abc's variation of the fly that is fine. You have every right to teach, write or whatever about something that you did to improve or alter a patttern.

 

What I am saying, and everyone knows this, is that if you take a deceiver, make a few changes to the fly ( no matter what they are), take credit for a NEW fly and say that YOU came up with the fly, that is absoultely WRONG.

 

Some of us know who I am referring to and this is a major violation of the "Ethics" involved in this. For someone to gain financial gain, exposure and notority for using someone else's "STYLE" is not right.

 

Now, this is the way that I was taught by my mentor and I hold to this. It would be the same if I tied a Deceiver with ultra/superhair, put a name to the fly and called it mine. I might have used different materials but it is still inthe Deceiver STYLE.

 

If you took a Clouser Minnow, added hackle into the wing, renamed the fly and put your name to it, is that ETHICAL? Guess what.............

 

The original Clouser Minnow used buck tail. If you lok in Umpquas catalog, they use super/ultra hair. It is stilla clouser minnow. This is another STYLE of tying.

 

I have talked with a lot of tyers and some have said to keep my mouth shut, others have not said very much and then others have told me to tell it like it is. Well, I am sort of trying to be subtle in all of this but this is my HOT SPOT. I, personally, do not like it when anyone gets credit for soeething that they did not do - PERIOD.

 

I could go on and on about all of this but each of us has their own ideas about this subject and that is fine. We are supposed to disagree and have discussions.

 

Jim, you mentioned that you had a Big Eye Baitfish and that is fine. I have no problem with flies having the same names but to rename an established pattern (style) and call it your creation is not right and I will argue that forever.

 

If you will look at the Merkin, every body and their brother has copied that fly in some shape, manner or form and renamed it. I guess that you could say that the Merkin is a style of tying in that you use pieces of rug yarn for the body. Now people are putting the legs at the rear changing the color(s), calling it something else and getting credit for it. No problem with the changes, just the CREDIT line.

 

I still thnk that it all goes back to people wanting to be someone and this is the only way that they can get to that point in a short period of time. Jim and I worked very hard to get where we were and it did not come easy. We worked out way from the bottom to the top (if you can call it that) and never said that we were something that we are not. I feel better about myself because of this although I could have been better known etc if I had followed another path but that is just not the way that I was taught and I certainly do not want to not be friends with those that have counselled me. Those friends mean more to me than notority.

[Guest]

Man, Joe I could tell when you started typing, I could here the rumble all the way up here in MD!

I though we were having another earthquake!

 

Joe, you know I agree with you, I didn't mean to get you started! I know how you feel about this subject!

 

I also believe I know who you're referring to, as you and I have discussed this before. There are several tyers around who have done this, and are taking credit for flies they didn't deserve credit for! It's not right, but the fact is it's hard to change, especially when a tyer becomes recognized as the patterns originator by the fly fishing public. In many cases, the average person who reads such things don't know the difference & probably don't even care.

 

However you're correct that it should matter, and the business of fly fishing is relatively small, so most folks who are involved in the business end know when

things like this happen, but instead of making the effort to set it right, it's often just ignored!

 

Joe, you're darn decent guy for an old fart! Pretty good tyer too!

[SDHflyfisher 0]

chack out the warmwater forum i posted a pattern there of the decievers

[Bigfish 0]

As hard as I try I can't ignore this any longer.

 

I absolutly have a problem with anyone naming their variation of an exhisting pattern or style when they use their name in the name of their fly. Such as Capt. Mel's Charlie, all because I used krystal flash instead of flashabou? I don't think so!

 

And, I have a real problen with those that tie a fly, send it to a magazine as the latest and greatest Charlie when in fact the thing hasn't even caught a fish. And then the next thing you know, the fly is in an Umpqua or S/A catalog.

 

I don't care if they changed the color, the material, or the eyes, it's still a damn Crazy Charlie and it's no ones fly but Nauheims'.

 

In my opinion there probably will never ever be another "new" fly tied, just a rendition of an old fly!

 

So, "sound off like you gotta pair", tell the thief he stole that fly!

 

Mel