Hen hackle, rooster hackle, big flies, little flies

[Harold Ray 0]

I am learning and wanted to make sure on this point: hen hackle is not as fine and small as rooster hackle, so hen hackle is more suited for larger flies, 4s, 2s, 1s, 1/0s, 2/0s, etc. Rooster hackle is smaller, finer and much better for smaller flies, 6s on to 32s, etc.. I'm thinking here of Whiting Platinum, Golds, Silvers on both roosters and hens.

 

Or is this incorrect, and the differentiation becomes more pronounced depending upon the type of chicken from which the feathers are derived? The American feathers are more suited for larger flies, and the Whiting feathers are more suited for smaller flies.

 

You can spend a lot of money on feathers; I just would like to spend the money as intelligently as possible while buying the feathers that will do the job for me.

 

There are such a large number of questions and so many intricacies associated with flyfishing and tying, it is daunting and frustrating at times, just trying to learn what to do and correcting mistakes already made.

 

I am looking at Whiting American and one group of Hareline American hackle from the J Stockard Fly Fishing site, J. Stockard American Hackle, search function: American Hackle. There are several American hen and rooster products. We've got backs, capes, and saddles. I want to get a hackle product that will be used for tying larger flies for both salt and freshwater, hook sizes 6, 4, 2, 1, 1/0 on up to 5/0, 6/0 or so. Which of the ones below best fits my tying goal?

 

And, what is the difference between feathers for these different sources, if any: backs, capes, and saddles?

 

[Hareline American Hen Back]

American Hen Back - NM-790071-0000

 

by: Hareline

 

These backs are from domestic birds and are perfect for all around tying of nymphs and streamers. Choose from 14 colors.

Starts at: $5.55

 

 

Product Details

 

 

[Hareline American Grizzly Hen Back]

American Grizzly Hen Back - NM-790072-0000

 

by: Hareline

 

These are great for collars and crawfish claws. Choose from 3 colors. More>>

Starts at: $5.55

 

 

[Hareline American Speckled Hen Back]

American Speckled Hen Back - NM-790073-0000

 

 

by: Hareline

 

American Speckled Hen Backs are generously sized, they have partridge–like speckling and are available in 5 different colors. (The natural color is like a gray partidge.) More>>

Starts at: $6.35

 

 

[Whiting American Hen Cape]

American Hen Cape - NM-630015-0000

 

by: Whiting

 

Excellent webby hackle for those who require the best. Formerly graded as gold, silver or bronze quality, Whiting American hackle now consists of a single grade and offers more popular colors dyed ove... More>>

Starts at: $14.85

 

 

Whiting American Hen Saddle]

American Hen Saddle - NM-630020-0000

 

by: Whiting

 

Excellent webby hackle for those who require the best. Formerly graded as gold, silver or bronze quality, Whiting American hackle now consists of a single grade and offers more popular colors dyed ove... More>>

Starts at: $7.95

 

 

[Whiting American Rooster Cape]

American Rooster Cape - NM-630005-0000

 

by: Whiting

 

Whiting Farms is a premier producer of highest quality hackle. Whiting’s American capes are bred for the saltwater, bass, salmon and steelhead tyer. Formerly graded as gold, silver or bronze qua... More>>

Starts at: $19.75

 

Product Details

 

 

[Whiting American Rooster Saddle]

American Rooster Saddle - NM-630010-0000

 

by: Whiting

 

Whiting Farms is a premier producer of highest quality hackle. Whiting’s American saddles are bred for the saltwater, bass, salmon and steelhead tyer. Formerly graded as gold, silver or bronze q... More>>

Starts at: $9.85

 

 

Thanks,

 

Ray

[deeky 0]

It goes deeper than this, but I think a good place to start (and where I'll leave it) is the difference in structure. THIS IS GENERALITY. Hen hackles are very 'webby'. They have a lot of the hook like fibers that hold the fibers together. Hens are good for things like soft hackle, matuka style flies, and such.

 

Rooster hackles, on the other hand, have very little to no 'webby' material between the fibers. When you wrap them, the fibers easily separate from eachother and stand straight out. These are generally used for dry fly hackle.

 

There are other variations in there, such as bass/saltwater capes, which are not so much used to wrap, but in streamers. There are others on here that can give you more, but hopefully this gets you started.

 

Deeky

[ted patlen 0]

deeky summed it up pretty well...

 

hen is soft and easily absorbs water...rooster has a stiffer harder fiber ...for the most part...a classic dry fly hackle is today, genically bred so the fibers are stiffer, glossier and made specifically for dry flies...we are not talking about the stem of the feather but the flues that stick out when wrapped around the hook...

 

if you hold a hen hackle tothe light you see a softer effect, most if not all of the flues are hairly little suckers , while the rooster will have harder, stiffer and smoother flues...but NOT the entire feather...you will see some soft fibers down along the shaft and the bottom section of the hackle...that's the way the feathers constructed...years ago you used only the top 30 of the feather nowadys you can find dry fly quality feathers with a much longer "sweet-spot"...

 

 

a zillion words have been written...and i haven't talked about saddles , ot back, spade, tail, etc...

 

if you want to tie a pattern that "swims" in a very easy environment (lake) then hen is great...if you want that same pattern for a raging current then rooster is better...

 

confused yet? if you weren't then, you gotta be now

[Harold Ray 0]

confused yet? if you weren't then, you gotta be now ohmy.gif

 

Well, Ted, you and Deeky are certainly getting me there. I read a lot on tying; its replaced veterinary topics as my top reading and researched material, but I got'ta tell you, veterinary medicine is easier for me than learning to tie flies because I've had a lifetime of it. Tying flies is taking more knowledge than I ever imagined! I have told my veterinary aquaintances that y'all study flytying at least as much as we do treating animals, and I can guarantee you, that's a lot!

 

I am wanting to tie Clousers and other similar, submersible flies, smaller and larger. They all discuss and recommend American hen hackle because of its heavier, less delicate qualities, rather than Whiting style, fine feathers as seen in the premium Platinum grade from Whiting distributors.

 

You are saying that in the American Hackle both the hens and roosters have their place, hens in the less turbulent waters of slower moving streams, rivers and coastal flats, while roosters hackle would better withstand the rough waters of tumbling steams and surf? So, I would actually need some of both.

 

Am I correct in that American Hackle, with heavier, bulkier feathers, is more suited for this type use than Whiting Hackle, which appears to me to be much smaller and finer in texture? I don't find the heavier feathers on the Whiting Hackle, different kind of chicken. But according to your post above, the hen feathers, even in the American Hackle class, are better suited to submersible flies than the rooster because of their inherent qualities, more webbing, etc., while the rooster hackle is better for the dry flies.

 

I really am enjoying learning about flyfishing and tying; its just taking some time and study.

 

Thanks for your help! Please keep it coming.

 

Ray

 

 

[deeky 0]

Harold,

 

Don't get too discouraged. I think you can put into tying what you want to get out of it. Some guys really get into tracking genetics and using exact type and section of feather to specific patterns. If that is where you want to go and have the energy, then go for it. But it you don't want to get that far in (or like me, don't have time and energy), I don't think it's necessary. I have a couple of necks that I use when it calls for either neck or saddle or spade or whatever I can fudge out of it. To me it doesn't make that much of a difference, and I still get what I want out of it. The great thing about fly fishing and tying is that you make it what you want, not what you have to buy in the little plastic packages at that store.

 

Deeky

[conehead 0]

Again, one of the best was to purchase hackle is to determine what type of flies you want to tie. I see you are from Texas. My guess is not a lot of trout fishing (only a guess).

 

For trout dry flies I am looking for rooster hackle necks with stiff barbs, and necks that hold the size feathers for the size flies I tie. I do a lot of trout fishing with dryflies.

 

I also fish a lot of small mouth bass with sub-surface flies. I look for webby type hackle that I can use for streamers, woolly buggers, matukas.

 

I can also use these webby hackles for many of the tails on topwater bass poppers (Good for the tails and even for wrapping at the base of the popper.

 

For soft hackle flies I purchased o partridge skin (Natural not dyed) and have just about all I need for trout wet flies that need soft webby hackles for the legs.

 

Again first determine what type of flies you want to tie and buy accordingly. If you post the flies you want to use, I 'm sure the guys on this board will help you out with the right kind of hackle purchase.

 

Conehead

 

[Chase Creek 0]

Deeky hit it right on the head. You can put as much or as little into this sport as you want. There are a lot of ways to go with it, a lot of different areas to try (tying classics, warmwater, coldwater, saltwater, etc.). Some guys have picked up the equivelant of a college education in entimology, while others, like myself, can hardly tell a grasshopper from a ladybug. But we all get enjoyment out of this, and that's the ultimate goal. This flyfishing stuff is way too important to be taken seriously. Have fun with it.

[Harold Ray 0]

I am wanting to tie Clousers and other similar, submersible flies, smaller and larger. They all discuss and recommend American hen hackle because of its heavier, less delicate qualities, rather than Whiting style, fine feathers as seen in the premium Platinum grade from Whiting distributors.

 

Conehead,

 

No, or very few trout like you fish for here in Texas. In Central Texas, its bass, stripers, perch, sunfish, ctas, etc. On the coast, its redfish, trout, flounder, shark, etc.

 

Ray

 

[ted patlen 0]

deeky,

sounds as if you're a vet...

 

neck and saddles are from the head , neck and back of the bird...on a rooster these are the "dry" fly type...

 

body feathers, hen backs, schlappen, maribou etc are all softer feathers with different degrees of webiness

 

 

a rooster neck feathers have stiffer fibers which are more resiliant, thus will hold up a classic style catskill type dry fly...but that is not the only feather that can be used to float a dry fly, or the only style of floating fly...

 

the major differences are as we discussed...hen, any hen, is a softer more absorbant fiber rooster (necks and saddles) is the other end of the spectrum...any and all feathers are usefull for whatever you wish to tie,

 

softer fibers move with less effort making them usefull to a fly tyer if he/she wants to impart more movement to his creation...

 

as you are very well aware there are many different stiffnesses, opacities and bulk from the many different feathers...some feathers are better suited for different uses/enviroments...

 

 

not all rooster's are good for dry flies, thus all the varieties such as for...bass, streamer, salt water etc...

 

you mentioned a clouser...your basic clouser is actually a "DEEP" clouser with the lead eyes and bucktail wings...there are many variations of this pattern and i've seen a few with hackles...but it sounds like you are a tying a feather winged "clouser" i'm a little confused..

 

 

did i screw you up anymore?

 

 

 

 

[Hairstacker 0]

I'm with Conehead on this one -- determine the types of flies you want to tie and then shop accordingly. It is difficult to make useful generalizations because there are significant variations even within the categories.

 

For example, take "rooster" hackle. For my dry flies, I buy the very expensive, premium Whiting rooster necks and saddles, because I want the web-free hackles with stiff barbs with which to collar these flies. On the other hand, for the tails on my Dahlberg Divers, I prefer strung rooster hackle (it is literally a bunch of feathers strung together with a piece of string) that is wider, webbier, and with soft barbs because I want these feathers and their barbs to flex and provide a swimming motion when the fly goes subsurface. Both of these types of feathers are "rooster" feathers, but their characteristics are VERY different from one another.

 

You mentioned you want to tie Clousers, but Clousers aren't tied with feathers at all. The standard pattern calls for bucktail, to which many folks add some type of flash material, like Flashabou and/or Krystal Flash. Others like to tie them with various synthetics as substitutes for the bucktail, but I've yet to see one tied with feathers.

 

-- Mike

[Hairstacker 0]

Nice post Ted, you must have been writing while I was. I probably wouldn't have posted had I seen your latest, good job!

 

-- Mike

[ted patlen 0]

i just read yours...it's easier to read than mine...i can confuse people fairly easy..

 

 

i know , someone has to do...so it might as well be me

[Harold Ray 0]

determine the types of flies you want to tie and then shop accordingly. It is difficult to make useful generalizations because there are significant variations even within the categories.

 

No one is really mixing me up on this, and I do think I understand better. There's just a lot of variation on each skin; you can have great, long, nearly web-less, stiff barbed dry fly feathers and webby, fluffier, wet fly feathers all on one good quality saddle, neck, back or cape; you hve to search for them. It takes me time to learn; I do wish I had found this hobby many years ago, but it didn't work out that way.

 

For the really bulky maribou and chickabou feathers, are there specific breeds like Whiting, American, Herbert-Miner, or Coq de Leon, that are especially known for those feathers?

 

I have a couple of premium grade Whiting saddles (Platinum I believe) and a couple of Metz premiums, however they term them, and on those I can few or none of the big, webby feathers I have seen called for in some fly descriptions; that is the reason for all my questions.

 

Thanks,

 

Ray

 

P.S.

 

I appreciate everyone's help and answers, and I apologize for having to ask questions that to you are simple. Learning is pretty complicated though. I figure in a year or two I will know a lot more, having learned to actually tie some more complicated flies, and then, maybe I can help someone, too.

[Harold Ray 0]

i just read yours...it's easier to read than mine...i can confuse people fairly easy..

 

Ted,

 

You sell yourself short; I understood your posts just as I understood Mike's, Conehead's, Deeky's and Chase's. Each answer gave me an idea of what others are doing, and that is what I wanted.

 

Ray

[conehead 0]

Harold,

 

The best education on hackle I ever received was from a seminar by Collins Hackle ((was not an infomercial). I was at one of the fly-fishing shows (Maryland I think). Once someone visibly shows you the necks and the types of flies it will tie, it becomes a whole lot easier.

 

Look for a local fly-tying show or at least a local fly-tying instructor. Some of these concepts are difficult to put into words without seeing it first hand.

 

I would think as a Vet you would come into contact with some very exotic hair samples. Just think of the possibilities.

 

Conehead