quick question.Traditional dry flies.......

[iso18 0]

one hackle while hackling traditional dry flies with the long whiting 100's hackle.I am a self taught tyer,through reading,Orvis guide to begininng fly tying,orvis fly pattern index,Randaul kaufmans nymph tyer manual etc.,you get the picture.The books always said to use 2 hackles for a dry.

I have been tying for about 13 years now and with the whiting 100's and the rotary seems i only need one hackle.I still get the hackle almost as full as with two.The question is this.Are there any drawbacks to this in any way or disadavantages of only using the one hackle?

One more question,On hair wing dries like a royal wulff,with calf tail,you know the bump you build up in front to get the hair to stand up,are there any tips on hackling over this cause sometimes my hackle falls off the bump a little and is slanted,at the front,causing me to wrap over unwanted hackles and not letting me accomplish a neat head as I would like to have?

 

thanks in advance,,,,,,cause since joining this site my tying has improved ten fold.

shane aka iso18

[Futzer 0]

You understand already, Shane. Whitings are 5 times longer and evenly length-ed in barbules, than what used to tie with. You needed two or more to do what one Whiting will do now. That said, I still use two frequently for color variations, I mix olive dyed grizzly with almost every other color. I also like a light dun or a sandy dun color as my contrast hackle. I do not tie hackles in rotary style, some new tricks this ole dog doesn't need to learn. Actually I tie in hackle in front of the wing, go back to the hook bend side and forward again to the front. I like the over lapping look and sturdiness. And so I can angle in at the wing to get the stem right close, I am not sure that rotary style will accomplish this well especially on hackle tipped, or fan wing/turkey flats wings. I tie my hair wings to the rear of the fly, and use the tail tie in right next to the wing end then a little thread wrapping to smooth that out. In front of the wing I taper the thread base so it looks nice and even when hackled. Hope that makes sense.

 

Cheers, Jeff.

 

An Example.

http://www.flytyingforum.com/pattern7116.html

[rockworm 0]

Shane

 

Using a single saddle hackle permits you to form a neat collar which is uniform and cylindrical. I don't like the look of such a collar. I think the fly lands and floats much better when some hackle fibers point a bit back and some a bit forward. I get this effect by winding the first hackles back towards the abdomen and then forward to the eye. Then repeating this process with the second hackle over the first. I also think the blending of two colours of hackle enhances the beauty and fishability of the fly.

 

As for the hump in front of the wing. It is important that the hackle(s) be wound over a relatively even (unbumpy) shank. Like Jeff I also tye my hackles in in front of the wing, in part to level this area and in part to increase the shank diameter (so that the collar in front of the wings is not smaller than that behind.)

 

 

[iso18 0]

Shane

 

Using a single saddle hackle permits you to form a neat collar which is uniform and cylindrical. I don't like the look of such a collar. I think the fly lands and floats much better when some hackle fibers point a bit back and some a bit forward. I get this effect by winding the first hackles back towards the abdomen and then forward to the eye. Then repeating this process with the second hackle over the first. I also think the blending of two colours of hackle enhances the beauty and fishability of the fly.

 

As for the hump in front of the wing. It is important that the hackle(s) be wound over a relatively even (unbumpy) shank. Like Jeff I also tye my hackles in in front of the wing, in part to level this area and in part to increase the shank diameter (so that the collar in front of the wings is not smaller than that behind.)

so step by step rockworm.You have 2 form the bump to get the wing to stand up.Waht would you do with the hackle to prevent this from happening.

so relatively un humpy how do u achieve that precisely?Over lapping thread building it up to take away the hump?

 

Cant believe this yall r letting me down thought i would get way more resonses.Thank you futz and rockworm

shane

[rockworm 0]

Shane

 

You want step-by-step:

 

First, make sure your wings are not too close to the eye (A common mistake that exacerbates the problem you are having.) You need to have space for 4-6 turns of each hackle AND a few mm for a head. (The traditional Catskill tyers put the wings back even further and left a few mm of bare hook shank in front of the head!)

 

When standing up the wing(s), don't just wrap thread in front of the wing. Take a couple (or six) of wraps against the wing, then wrap a layer almost to the eye and back to the wing. Pull back the wing material and wrap a couple (or six) times between the wing and the previous wraps, then a layer towards the eye- but not as far as last time. Repeat until the wings are upright. (What you want here is to finish with a gentle slope from "hump" to just behind the eye.)

 

Then after dividing the wings, tying on the tails and dubbing the abdomen, tye your hackles on in front of the wing. Overwrap the butts almost to the eye. Wrap the thread back about half way to the wing. At this point, there should be no noticeable bumps, ridges, or grooves; just a gentle even thread base to wind your hackle over.

 

Sorry I don't have a Step-by-Step with photos of this for you. I hope my description helps a bit. But basically, its a matter of your careful use of thread and wing placement.

[iso18 0]

sorry for the two posts i just woke up.

[iso18 0]

First, make sure your wings are not too close to the eye (A common mistake that exacerbates the problem you are having.) You need to have space for 4-6 turns of each hackle AND a few mm for a head. (The traditional Catskill tyers put the wings back even further and left a few mm of bare hook shank in front of the head!)

 

Take a couple (or six) of wraps against the wing, then wrap a layer almost to the eye and back to the wing. Pull back the wing material and wrap a couple (or six) times between the wing and the previous wraps, then a layer towards the eye- but not as far as last time. Repeat until the wings are upright. (What you want here is to finish with a gentle slope from "hump" to just behind the eye.)

 

Overwrap the butts almost to the eye. Wrap the thread back about half way to the wing. At this point, there should be no noticeable bumps, ridges, or grooves; just a gentle even thread base to wind your hackle over.

 

 

 

I do this exactly as u r saying and never have any problems. with woodduck,wing tips,antron,cdc,etc.,,u grt the picture.But tih the hair wings.If i wrap the thread evenly in front ,as u say,and have anice even layer after the hackles r tied in,on hair wings mind you,thread is to bulky and ends up being to bulk at head and the thread wants to fall off the hook.I know the mext thing you would say for that is use finer thread.But it doesnt have the pressure u need for such bulky wings.I think i'll try gel spun for the wings and swith for the rest of the fly.

thanks anyway

shane

[iso18 0]

 

 

 

 

I do this exactly as u r saying and never have any problems. with woodduck,wing tips,antron,cdc,etc.,,u grt the picture.But tih the hair wings.If i wrap the thread evenly in front ,as u say,and have anice even layer after the hackles r tied in,on hair wings mind you,thread is to bulky and ends up being to bulk at head and the thread wants to fall off the hook.I know the mext thing you would say for that is use finer thread.But it doesnt have the pressure u need for such bulky wings.I think i'll try gel spun for the wings and swith for the rest of the fly.

 

 

Walah!!!!!!!!!!Cant believe it.I switched the calf tail to white buck tail and you would not believe the difference it made.Perfect wings,perfect head,much smaller bump to stand the wings up.Bucktail is much easier to work with than calf tail.Hmm maybe calf body hair would be good also.Thanks for you input guys.I got it under control now.

shane aka iso18

thanks

shane

figured someone would have mentioned this.but it was allot funner finding out 4 myself. :headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

[iso18 0]

....................

[the saltydog 0]

Shane -

 

2 years ago I pretty much stopped tying anything but parachute style flies for fishing. I think they sit on the film better. Then stick with antron or turkey flats for the post and you eliminate your problem.

 

That being said, I do enjoy tying wulfs and such for fun; you are probably using too much calf tail so its taking more thread to make them upright. Also if you find a calf tail that has longer hair then you will end up tying it further from the base of the hair where it is thinner. I also use calf body hair sometimes and that is thinner too, but still curly.

 

enjoy,

Greg

[rockworm 0]

Shane

 

Bucktail is much easier to work with than calf tail. And Lee Wulff used bucktail in his original flies. But nothing makes a better Royal Wulff than calf tail! You are correct: you need to use heavy thread for mounting a Wulff hairwing. I use 6/0 Uni for #10-16 flies and 3/0 Uni for anything larger. But if your thread is falling off the head you are clearly not leaving enough space in front of your wing. (The thread shouldn't even reach the eye until you tye the head.) Try a few flies with the wing mounted a full 1/3 shank length behind the eye. Use as few wraps as you can to prop up the hair, but tightly wrapped against the hair (which you are pulling back with your left hand.) And after mounting, dividing and separating the wings, use a smaller thread for the rest of the fly.

 

Note that the hump below the hook also interferes with the neat wrapping of hackle. You can minimize the bottom hump by wrapping the thread under the hook behind the growing hump.

 

Don't give up on the calf tail. Persist and you will master this difficult material.

[iso18 0]

Shane

 

Bucktail is much easier to work with than calf tail. And Lee Wulff used bucktail in his original flies. But nothing makes a better Royal Wulff than calf tail! You are correct: you need to use heavy thread for mounting a Wulff hairwing. I use 6/0 Uni for #10-16 flies and 3/0 Uni for anything larger. But if your thread is falling off the head you are clearly not leaving enough space in front of your wing. (The thread shouldn't even reach the eye until you tye the head.) Try a few flies with the wing mounted a full 1/3 shank length behind the eye. Use as few wraps as you can to prop up the hair, but tightly wrapped against the hair (which you are pulling back with your left hand.) And after mounting, dividing and separating the wings, use a smaller thread for the rest of the fly.

 

Note that the hump below the hook also interferes with the neat wrapping of hackle. You can minimize the bottom hump by wrapping the thread under the hook behind the growing hump.

 

Don't give up on the calf tail. Persist and you will master this difficult material.

 

I'm not gonna give up calf tail,but,it sure makes things go allot smoother with bucktail.I do put the wings on 1/3 behind the eye.But like i said,with the calftail,when i wrap the hackles in front,they somtimes,let me say this agaiin sometimes lay at an angle causing me to whip finish over unwanted hackles.I should have said this b4-the thread was not actually falling off the front of the hook,but was just trapping hackles and making a much bulkier head than i would like sometimes.I just thought there was a technique that i could use to get a more perfect head.Afterall,isn't that what us tyers strive for--perfection'at least i do.hmm,a thought just hit me-half hitch,i could half hitch and then i would not wrap over these unwanted hackles when i get in2 this situatuion.

thanx again rockworm

shane aka iso18

 

[iso18 0]

Man were u ever right rockwormLee wullfs original called for whit buktail.What i read in books was different recipes,or substitutes.Just googled lee wulff and he always used whitelteail.No wonder i like the whitetail better,its what it is supposed to be and wow does it look good.And its the original,why woukd you want to mess with that.I have always had problems getting the tips even on calftail......not anymore.'

thnax rockworm

shane

[rockworm 0]

Shane

 

Trapping hackles over the eye is a common problem for all of us. I have a few suggestions which might help:

 

First of all, once your hackle starts leaning forward, it causes additional wraps to do the same. So, your first wrap of hackle in front of the hair wing is key. The approach is critical- pass the hackle well under the wing before starting the first wrap around the shank. If you slant the first wrap from the rear it will cause the hackle to lean way forward. You want the entire wrap perpendicular to the hook shank. If fibers still slant forward, push them back before the next turn.

 

When tying off the hackle there are several things to remember. Don't do it at the eye- tye off a few mm behind the eye. After the first turn of thread, subsequent turns must be behind the first or you will be forcing fibers forward over the eye.

 

When you are ready to whip-finish, place your thread at the eye, use your fingers to push back the collar, and then wrap back, pushing stray fibers back if necessary. (In fact, the act of whipping to the rear usually pushes the stray fibers back.) I invariable whip twice, the second one forward.

 

 

[Futzer 0]

Hey Shane, Check out the book "Production Fly tying" By A.K. Best, the hair wing section will really help. and for your professional ambitions.

 

Cheers, Jeff.