TYING MATERIALS COLORS

[sparkleminnow 0]

Just a chance to vent...

I'm sure that I'm not the first to notice this problem, but with materials from different companies, different types of materials, and even different batches from the same company, they can't seem to get onto a standard.

 

There is the Borger color system that addresses this, somewhat. However, it doesn't cover all colors. My take on this issue is that we need to have a fly tying standard color sheet that every fly shop should have that would allow them to relate to the customer what color a material is before they ship it. This can't be that difficult! There are already color charts put out by cosmetics compaies for their products, for this same reason. It is possible to do this. I was thinking about doing a book with this, in mind, that addresses this head-on. My intent would be to build off of the Borger color system to give people a reference to be able to relate colors across the board....not just dry fly dubbing colors.

 

If this weren't enough, then there are different names for the same color, from company to company! ....One company calls it shell pink, another calls it cotton candy, but it's the exact same color! OR....several companies calls theirs chartreuse, but they vary from flourescent Yellow to a light lime! Jeeez!

 

I know, we just deal with this, and move on, but why?! Industries always repond to market forces. If enough people do more than just gripe about this sort of thing, something will be done about it.

 

Sorry, just felt this was a bunch of

 

There, I feel better!

[Dble Haul 0]

QUOTE (sparkleminnow @ Oct 1 2004, 01:04 PM)

I know, we just deal with this, and move on, but why?! :

For me it's not really that big of a deal. I respect your views on the subject, but when it comes to tying I have bigger fish to fry, so to speak.

 

If you try to expand upon existing color systems, be aware that many of them are copyrighted/patented and protected. I'm not trying to discourage you, but be aware that you may need permission to incorporate any of them (for example, the Borger system) into your own system.

 

Either way, good luck with the project.

[Guest]

I think it was a recent issue of Fly Tyer(I might be wrong about that) that was discussing the differences in thread sizes between companies. What one company labels 8/0 would be a 6/0 to another and there is no real standard. I think rods, lines, shoe sizes and just about everything on earth runs into a similar problem. I don't think there will ever be a standard to follow, companies think their way is the right way and they are not about to change.

 

It would be nice though

[Guest]

Yup, I know how you feel. Worse thing was, I was buying from so many different distributors, was crazy. I would make an emergency buy from one and then tie up flies for a customer. Then I'd get a call or email saying "why is the pink different", or something to that sort. Finally, sat down and grabbed out ALL my materials. Some companies are VERY good about quality control. Some are not at ALL! I went through all the materials I had, and started making a list of what met the standards I was looking for. Then, I sold off EVERYTHING that I didn't have on my list and rebought it from the company that was more consistent. Now, I buy from two distributors ONLY when it comes to the actual feathers, furs, etc. One of them is pretty much ONLY for my exotic feathers ONLY! When I grab a "pink" zonker strip bag, ALL the pinks are roughly the same color. Only variation comes if the rabbit had brighter guard hairs that put off a lighter tinge of pink (which actually looks pretty cool).

 

Now, if it's just for me and my fishing, I don't give a rip. LOL.

[sparkleminnow 0]

Dble Haul, my idea was not to steal the Borger system, but to do as he did by assigning a number to a color, and making that a standard. That way, when you ordered a color, you could ask, "Is that yellow 21, or yellow/olive 44?" As it is now, you ask for yellow, you could get a light yellow, pale yellow, bold yellow, dark yellow, or flourescent yellow....they could all be sold under the name "yellow". No way to know.

BTW, I'll just acknowledge that my smiley for this thread is..

[flyman 0]

Have you ever seen the Pantone Color Chart System? I think it's kind of the standard for printing and art work, I don't let it drive me too crazy anyway. I think size and shape are more important in the construction of a fly than an exact color match The material is gonna change color when it gets wet anyway Here's the Pantone chart.

 

 

 

 

http://www.demstore.com/scstore/DemStore/c...tone-chart.html

[Guest]

Standardizing colors would be nice, but I don't think it'll ever happen. It is extermely difficult to match colors batch after batch. The company I work for manufactures specialty coatings and we don't give out standard color sheets any more because it caused so many problems. The biggest problem is having a printer match your standard colors. What comes off the press never matches the actual color.

 

We have 12 standard colors that everyone recognizes; red, black, white, canary yellow, etc. If a customer wants something different we will match a color sample for them, but we don't warrant that if they want more of that same color in the future that we can duplicate it exactly. The reason is that the pigment base is never the same batch to batch.

 

 

 

[Dble Haul 0]

QUOTE (sparkleminnow @ Oct 1 2004, 02:04 PM)

Dble Haul, my idea was not to steal the Borger system, but to do as he did by assigning a number to a color, and making that a standard. That way, when you ordered a color, you could ask, "Is that yellow 21, or yellow/olive 44?" As it is now, you ask for yellow, you could get a light yellow, pale yellow, bold yellow, dark yellow, or flourescent yellow....they could all be sold under the name "yellow". No way to know. BTW, I'll just acknowledge that my smiley for this thread is..

Sorry if you misunderstood, but I wasn't suggesting that you'd be stealing anything. I just inferred from your original post that you might try to pull some of the current systems into a catch-all of sorts, which would require cooperation from many sides.

[Streamside 0]

QUOTE

My take on this issue is that we need to have a fly tying standard color sheet that every fly shop should have that would allow them to relate to the customer what color a material is before they ship it.

 

 

 

I have been dressing hooks for more years than I care to admit. I've actually been trying to wean myself out of it over the last couple of years. With the cost of materials and especially hooks and genetic hackle, there is simply no money to be made in it. Not even buying wholesale. Fly Shops today just simply don't buy anymore from the independent tier. And rightly so. Why should they when they can buy at 1/3rd the cost from companies like Umpqua, Integra or Crystal complete with charts, literature, catalogs display racks etc...? It's cheaper for me just to take on their lines and become a distributor of their product than it is to tie flies myself. I don't even bother with shops any more. I now only tie for myself, some friends and a few custom orders for of my oldest private customers. As such I still keep the company name open so that I can buy direct wholesale. Over the years, I've seen dubbing and fly tying material companies and their color schemes come and go. It's no big deal. At the first of the year between Christmas and April all my new catalogs start coming in showing the new lines of products for that year. New colors, new shades new textures,and materials they have dropped from their lines etc..... Any of the reputable companies all have color charts and or full color catalogs that cross reference with standard BCS chart. If you are having trouble buying the right shades / color of dubbing materials you can simply request from any company they send you a catalog or color indexing sheet. Most companies are more than happy to comply in order to get your business. Besides the companies I deal with on a regular basis, I also occasionally bought small quantities from other companies all over the world. Holland, Germany, Belgium, Scotland England, Russia. Even most of these have some form of color charts you can use to cross reference or that cross reference directly with BCS. I have never really had any great color matching problems dealing with these companies sight unseen. I really don't see this as a valid concern in the fly tying industry. Also as Troutbum mentioned, coloring is not an exact science. Many times I have seen color shades and dyelots change from batch to batch. If you are really picky, you pretty much need to have your specimine kit in your hands when you go to the fly shop to pic your colors, which is exactly what I do when I am buying for myself. I take my specinine kit right into the shop and hold it up to the material I'm trying to match. If you see a color that you want, you better grab it, because it may be the very last time you ever see it. Also, another point of interest, you shouldn't be buying your colors for the color they show on the rack. You need to take into consideration what the color will look like wet so you need to picture it one or two shades darker.

One of my favorite Companies for dubbing is Scintilla who uses BCS. Over the last couple years I have dealt almost exclusively with two companies. Scintilla and Spirit River. Both have an over abundance of colors, shades, materials and textures to choose from and both have cross referencing charts. For your own personal use, from Scintilla you can buy a beautiful complete 3 ring binder with all 85 of their colors. It comes complete with tying tips and fly pattern index cards for $85.00. That's $1.00 a bag retail. You can't beat that price no matter how you look at it. This should alleviate your color matching dilemma. You will have all the dubbing you will ever use in your lifetime.

 

 

Hope this helps

 

Streamside

 

 

http://www.scintilladub.com/dubbing.html

 

http://www.scintilladub.com/supplies.html

 

 

 

 

[vices 0]

I just bought some chartruse dubbing that turned light green when i got outside.. can't waite to see what the waters gonna do..

[sparkleminnow 0]

Well, to be more precise, guys, the thing I'm shooting for is a solution to the problem of buying over the phone. If I were to go to their shop, and actually look at the material, then I could tell whether I wanted it, or not. However, when I order three yellow bucktails two might be a pale yellow, and one might be a bold yellow. For one of the deceivers that I tie, I use the back of a chartreuse bucktail, but only one in twenty of these tails has the dark back that I need to get that color. It's not standard, but luck of the draw, unless I know someone who will hand select the tail for me. They have to know what kind of color I'm talking about to be able to ask for that specific kind of color.

 

Flyman, I forgot about the Pantone color system! I haven't looked at it, but it might work. I'm not trying to "match the hatch" as it were, but rather to get the color that I need for the fish I'm after. I fish for wipers in the spring, and these fish are extemely color sensitive. It's not a matter of match the hatch, but the difference of two shades in tone can make or break you. I can use a bold dyed yellow for them, and catch 30 of them in a morning, while the guy next to me is using a pale yellow, and caught only one. I gave him one of my flies, and he caught 6 in 30 minutes. Now, there are times when I have caught smallmouth on 3 different colors in the same day. This illustrates that I do realize color might not always be a factor in catching fish, but sometimes it can be. It's just that it would be nice, not to have to order a bucktail, hackles, and krystal flash (of the "same" color) from three different shops and get 8 different shades!

 

Streamside, I agree about the "specimen" kit...uh, unless you are talking about the one you give to the doctor. Anyway, I'm not after match an insect so much as getting the color I asked for. If I can get on the same page as the guy on the other end of the phone, and we agree that the color he has is not the color I want, I can go else where. I may ask,"What shade of yellow is that?" His reply..."Uh, it say yellow on the package. I don't know...it's yellow." Yea, great. So, I go elsewhere. However, this story repeats itself over, and over, because it's tough to relate color over the phone without some kind of reference. BTW, I have a Scintilla color sheet, an Anglers choice pure silk dubbing sample sheet, Angel Hair color sample sheet, an SLF color box, and the BCS booklet. The BCS color chart doesn't cover all the colors. Just the ones that closely match insect colors. What if you're trying to match a hot pink hackle to a hot pink chenille on a bugger, but the marabou in the tail that matches is fushia? Same color going by a different name. How do you know unless you have it in hand? No standard.