Hook Dimensions - Allen Barbless Dry Fly Hooks

[Fletchfishes 0]

Hello,

 

I know there are a few folks out there that use the Allen FF Barbless Dry Fly hooks. There is a particular concept I've been struggling with on these hooks that I'd be interested in getting some input on.

 

If you compare the Allen Barbless Dry Fly Hooks (D101BL) to a Tiemco Standard Dry Fly (TMC100) the proportions are a little different. In particular, the shank length seems a little shorter on the Allen hooks. For example, a size #12 D101BL has the same hook gap as a #12 TMC100 but a shank length that is the same as a #14 TMC100. This throws my dry fly dimensions off since some of the dimensions (body, tail and wing) are referenced off the shank while others (hackle) are referenced off the hook gap.

 

Since I measure wing length, body length and tail length off the hook shank and the hackle length off my hackle guage (presumably aligned against a more standard hook dimension like a TMC100), I end up with a dry fly that has the wing, body and tail length of a size #14 fly but the hackle of a #12 when I'm tying on a D101BL in size #12. This means the wing disappears in the hackle and the fly ends up looking somewhat "stubby".

 

How do folks deal with this? Do you build the fly as if it were a #14 (with a larger hook gap)? I don't think I have the option of tying it like a #12 since I don't have the hook shank length of make a properly proportioned body.

 

I'm interested to see how others deal with this. I love the price, strength, sharpness, lack of barb and look of the Allen hooks - but not the non-standard dimensions! For reference, I'm attaching a photo that shows the three different hooks in the example above. The hooks (top to bottom): TMC100 #12, D101BL #12, TMC100 #14. As you can see the hook gap on the middle hook is essentially the same as the top hook while the shank length is closer to the bottom hook.

---------

 

Ok, re-reading my post - I don't think I've been very effective at concisely capturing my thoughts. Let me know if I should try again! The basic question is when you have a non-standard dimension hook, do you go off shank length or hook gap to determine the proper dimensions of the fly?

 

Thanks!

[whatfly 0]

Dimensions are always based on the hook. Was that a trick question?

 

Hooks vary quite a bit, but fly proportions do not. Generally, the fish do not care if you are using a #14 Tiemco versus a #14 Mustad or #14 Allen, etc...

[Fletchfishes 0]

Hi - not trying to ask a trick question, but I probably didn't word it well.

 

If the classic dry fly proportions are based off the hook as follows:

 

Note: not my image - drawn from a fly fisherman article I saved by Charlie Craven.

 

Tail = Length of hook shank

Body = 60-75% of hook shank

Wing = Length of hook shank

Hackle = 1.5 times hook gap

 

Then a different hook shank / gap ratio impacts the look of the fly. In the case of the Allen hooks, the hackle ends up being about the same length as the wings since the hook shank / gap ratio is around 1.5. While in the case of the typical dry fly hook the hackle is shorter than the wing (higher hook shank / gap ratio.) So, my question is: should the wing be longer than the hackle or should it be the same length as the hackle if I tie it on a fly that has a wider hook gap?

 

Apologies - I probably should have asked this one in the beginner section!

 

Thanks.

[whatfly 0]

Not a problem, but my answer does not change. Proportions are by the hook. If the hook changes, the proportions change accordingly. Ultimately most tie to what just seems right. Some might get into what the "right" proportions actually are based on historical references or the like. I typically base my wing on the gape, not the length of the shank, so the wing/hackle ratio covaries. Either way, to make the fly look "right", you'll want to have the wing a skosh longer than the hackle. Andy Puyan's proportions used to be hackle 1.5x gape, and wing 2x gape. I'm sure other tiers have come up with other solutions, but that original formula I first learned has stuck with me. And while we are on th subject, I think your tail is bit short for a feather one...but that's another thread...

[Crackaig 0]

Quote honestly, is that enough of a difference to bother with?

 

First does your hook gauge have a hook brand on it? If not throw it away. If it does put it away, and only get it out when you are using that particular hook. Measure all proportions against the hook you are using.

 

How accurately do you tie? If I were to take all of one kind of fly out of your box and measure, say, the tails, Would I find one that had a variation as great as the difference between those hooks? I'd put real folding money down that I could find that much difference between flies in 99% of tiers boxes. When I am production tying I can tell you how many turns of thread I use for each fly. It is the same for each fly of a size. Even with this I will get variations of that much between flies. It really doesn't matter.

 

As for the problem of sizing wings etc. measure against the hook. Not against another hook. It is easy to convert relation to shank length to relation to hook gape. Take a bare hook and a fly you are happy with and measure everything on the fly with the hook gap. Note it down. Job done.

 

The other alternative is to decide what hook you like a particular pattern tied on and only use that model for that pattern.

 

There is so much variation in hook sizes there is no way you can try to reproduce a fly on a different hook.

 

Cheers,

C.

[phg 0]

This is a common problem, when switching between brands, as there is no real standard for hook sizes. The Allan hook would appear to be 2x short relative to the Tiemco hook. You just have to adjust to get the best balance on the hook you are using. The standard hackle gauge is based on the Mustad 94840, but that isn't always appropriate for the hook you are actually using.

 

To augment Charlie Craven's proportion chart (not original, by the way), the "standard" hook shank length is 2x the gape. If, however, the HSL is more, or less, than that, then you have to adjust accordingly. If your shank is 2xl, then you may need a slightly longer hackle, and if your shank is 2xShort, you will need a slightly shorter hackle, etc. You just have to pay attention....

[McGnat 0]

I bought some of the Allen dry fly hooks and had the same observation. Somewhere a couple months ago, I posted a pic of the Tiemco 100, Mustad 94840 and the Allen hook. They are all different shank lengths for what is described as a standard dry fly hook. You may want to try the Allen D 103 or the Allen D 202 which are described as 1 XL. They are black nickel finish which sort of puts me off, although I doubt the fish care. I do not have any personal experience with the two Allen hooks I mentioned, so they may not be what you want. I'd buy just a pack or two until I saw what they actually looked like versus the Tiemco. Interestingly, in the Hook and Hackle catalog they describe the Tiemco 100 as being a 1 XL compared to the Mustad 94840. Everyone else says the two are the same proportions.

[Fletchfishes 0]

Glad I'm not the only one who has noticed. Since shank length really determines the size of the fly, the fact that the D101 is shorter essentially means you need to use a size up to get the same size fly as you would on another manufacturer. I think I have a pack of the D103 at home somewhere, I'll dig them out and compare. I'm interested to see if they are the same nice light wire as the D101 (suspect they are thicker since they are listed as a dry/nymph hook.)

 

I kind of like the black nickel finish. Interesting that you don't. I do wonder if hook color has any impact on the effectiveness of the fly or if it's just a personal preference for the fisherman.

[shoebop 0]

Fletch, You use the term "standard" when referring to hook size. That is exactly the problem. There is no standard when it comes to hook sizes. All fly proportions are in relation to the hook you are tying on.

[McGnat 0]

Fletch, post what you find out about the D 103 versus say the same size Tiemco 100. I'm curious.

Shoebop, he's not the only one who is using the term standard dry fly. All the makers and catalogs throw the term around even though there really does not seem to be a standard as you point out. It is like thread sizes; it is all over the place.

[Fletchfishes 0]

This has been helpful for me - thanks to all who replied. For a detailed oriented person such as myself, the kind of issues introduced by non standard hook proportions, non standard thread measurement, etc. can really hinder efforts to improve our tying skills.

 

I was always taught (mostly through books and online videos) that you measure the different fly dimensions off the hook dimensions. What I had failed to realize is that implicit in the rules of thumb around how to measure the fly dimensions is some sort of hook proportions which may not always hold true. In the example above, a lower hook shank to gap ratio (or said another way, a larger hook gap for a given shank size) invalidates some of the rules of thumb. In the example above, if I applied the rule of thumb that wing length = shank length and hackle length = 1.5 x gap length, you end up with a fly that has a wing and hackle that are the same length.

 

What I've learned here is that rather than blindly follow those rules of thumb, you need to consider the end fly you are trying to tie. I know that hackle length should be around 3/4 of the wing length in order to maintain the proper profile. I'm going to base all of my fly dimensions of the shank length of the hook I'm using. This removes the issue around variance in hook proportions. Of course, I end up with a fly that has a larger hook gap for a given fly size than I might see if I tied it on another hook. That feels like a reasonable trade-off and certainly preferred to having a fly with an over-sized hackle, wing, tail, etc.

 

Good stuff. Thanks for humoring me. Hopefully this conversation is useful to others as well.

[Crackaig 0]

You seem to think, as many others do, of that Mustad hook as a "standard" (which we seem to have just agreed doesn't exist). However it does suggest an easy way to modify the proportion guide. We could use - Wing = shank length, Tail = shank length, Hackle = 1 1/2 Gap, WHEN HOOK SHANK = TWICE THE GAP.

 

That leaves the problem of how do you work out proportion when the shank is longer or shorter? Now there is a debate. Longer is easy, just tie shorter. But for shorter hooks...

 

For me, I still don't think and eye width either way will make an ha'penny worth of difference, unless you are tying to a exactitude far greater than anything I've ever seen used in fishing flies.

 

Cheers,

C.

[phg 0]

You seem to think, as many others do, of that Mustad hook as a "standard" (which we seem to have just agreed doesn't exist)....

C.

There are official standards and there are de facto standards. The Mustad 94840 was the de facto standard for dry fly hooks for some time. The TMC 100 may be the new de facto standard, I don't know, but I do like that hook.

 

Other than than that observation, I pretty much agree with your summation. With the plethora of hook lengths and gapes that are in vogue today, just base your proportions on the HSL, or even just the body length.

[Guest]

I have always used the term standard to suggest it is not a specialized hook.

[Crackaig 0]

phg, I think we are saying the same thing. What I was meaning was that there is a general acceptance that there is no regular set standard on which hooks are based. However, the proportions of that Mustad hook are generally accepted as a sort of norm for dry flies.

 

For a long time I have thought that we should have a standardised way of measuring hooks. Absolutely not change any makers hooks in any way. But just a standard measurement method for hooks that can be printed on packs. It is easy enough to get this, we all agree on a way to measure hooks and stop buying from those makers that do not put that information on the packets. Within 6 months every hook will have easily comparable sizes. If you can organise this, could you please teach me how to herd cats when you have a minute.

 

Having just had a quick rummage I have 4 varieties of size 16 barbless dry fly hooks. Each with a different shank length. Some I use for one pattern others for different ones. The problem is that one of them is discontinued. Standardised measurement of hooks would enable me to select a replacement much more easily.

 

As a group if we don't do this we deserve the confusion that we currently have.

Cheers,

C.