Issues with hackle

[billy 0]

Hi all... I am having trouble making the hackle come out on dry flys. Is there any guidance I can watch or read on how to make my ties more successful? Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Worstcaster 0]

Can you be more specific about the problem with the hackle? How are the flies loking when you are done? How are you trying to tie the hackle? (Collar, parachute, other?)

 

Some idea's off the top of my head. Are you measuring the hackle to make sure it is the right size for the hook you are tying on? When tying in the hackle stem tie it in tight with the tread but a little more gentle when wrapping with the hackle plyiers. For dry flies you want hackle with thin stiff fibers. Wider flexable fibers are more for wet flies and streamers. Hope some of this helps. Good Luck.

[cougar_bait 0]

Howdy - Here's a few rantings from an old(er) guy.

 

You didn't mention if it's a handling, laying or tying problem

 

You also didn't mention: are you tying the hackle down at the tip or root? Are you stripping the excess from the root end prior to tying attaching it to the hook (just to get the riffraff out of your way)? Are you splitting the feather and as a result only using one side of the hackle? Is there a base material on the hook that the hackle is lying upon?

 

Tying from one end leaves the hackle laying rear-ward, while trying from the other (small end) leaves the hackle standing tall.

 

Remove all the short veins from one side of the feather to make handling easier and the finished hackle more controlled. Remove all the "riffraff" from the feather, that won't be used, in advance of attaching it to the hook.

 

Tie from tip: leave the last few bits of the veins un-stripped from the small end, but remove a few where the thread will lay over it, then lay the hackle in... trim the tip. Removing just those few veins at the tip of the feather allows the thread to lay onto the feathers' weak-end of its' shaft very nicely.

 

You may want to lay a very, very small amount of head cement upon the shaft to help hold the feather shaft as you wrap. Wipe-off almost all that you applied, leaving only a soft film which the feathers' shaft may sit quietly.

 

Most importantly: make a zig-zag motion when wrapping the feather. This allows the individual veins to stand-up and not be mashed-down.

 

With hackle, a large number of wraps is not necessary as it is used to make a blurred appearance on the waters surface when seen by the fish. Alas, the more veins the higher it will float and the dryer it will stay (& perhaps appear more alive or active to the fish).

 

Hackle knotting tools can be a bear to operate. Look for finishing knots you can tie by hand; a simple half-hitch works to hold it all in place, though a single or double whip knot is not as difficult as it appears. Once you've tied 20 or 30 on a bare, long-shanked hook you'll have it down.

 

Lay your non-thread-using finger across the hackle, on top of the fly, parallel with the hood-shaft, moving the finger slightly rearward until contact is made with the hook. This lays the hackle veins rearward and out of harms way and, also holds the tying thread in-place and allows you to introduce (dangerous) slack in the thread while you knot the bug. With your finger holding the fly hackle out of the way and the thread tight to the hook, use the thread-hand to create one half-hitch knot over the looped (leader) end of the hook - snug the thread. Now you can free the other hand from the bug and that one half-hitch will hold everything in place until you can throw a quit whip finish on the thing. As you get better/more sensitive holding the hackle and threads after the hackle is in-place, you can place two whip knots; trim and cement.

 

Be certain to tie the body of the bug no further than over half the length of the hook-shaft as the hackle and head will take-up the other half.

 

When I finish my fly, I lay my finger along the shaft as mentioned above then, when tying-off the bug I actually let the threads knot wrap my "holding" finger. The thread then slides from my finger tip onto the hook just behind the wire's hoop bend. Do this twice, trim, dope and it's ready for the box.

 

The references made above to the feather might be viewed at http://www.kidwings.com/bodyparts/feathers/parts/index.htm.

 

I don't know if I should mention this on this site but... I sell a product to make handling and tying knots a lot easier. Feel free to visit www.flytyersfingertreatment.com. Read about it and see if this may help your problem.

 

I hope all this blither helps you some.

 

Christopher

Ps I'm certainly no bait fisherman, I couldn't catch the flu with bait. Any idea how I can change that little BAIT FISHERMAN text next to my name/handle? :crying:

[billy 0]

Yeah, I was a little vague on the issue... so, let me expand.

 

The issue is with collars. I can palmer hackle OK. The collars are not working well. I tried both tying from the tip and the butt. I have had some success with the butt end, but the fibers are always pointing over the hook eye.

 

I have not tried stripping the fibers away from one section of the hackle. I will try that next.

 

I have broken the hackle on numerous occasions, but I guess that is from too much tension.

 

I guess it is just a 'feel thing'. I have not been doing a 'zig-zag', but that makes sense to do.

 

Thanks to both of you for the ideas.

 

To not be a 'bait fisherman', you must make posts to the forum, the more posts, the higher rating (to a point). I think you lose the 'bait fisherman' status after 10 posts.

[cougar_bait 0]

Yeah, I was a little vague on the issue... so, let me expand.

 

The issue is with collars. I can palmer hackle OK. The collars are not working well. I tried both tying from the tip and the butt. I have had some success with the butt end, but the fibers are always pointing over the hook eye.

 

I have not tried stripping the fibers away from one section of the hackle. I will try that next.

 

I have broken the hackle on numerous occasions, but I guess that is from too much tension.

 

I guess it is just a 'feel thing'. I have not been doing a 'zig-zag', but that makes sense to do.

 

Thanks to both of you for the ideas.

 

To not be a 'bait fisherman', you must make posts to the forum, the more posts, the higher rating (to a point). I think you lose the 'bait fisherman' status after 10 posts.

I'd definately go for the removal of all veins on the non-used side of the feather. It sounds like the feather is rolling over due to the fibers' mass between the shaft and the shank.

 

If you wrap the hackle by hand then learn the soft touch when wrapping that allows the feather to gently slide through your fingers as you wrap. With time you'll be able to hold the entire thing together as mentioned above with the opposite hand then, with the wrapping hand, let go and re-grip the hackle feather.

 

If you lay your hackle with hackle plyers, try not holding the plyers but, instead, use your finger (thru the hole in the plyer) and let your finger work as a shock absorber, using finger tension. The plyers are tough for me but then...

 

What's best for one is terrible for the other - best o'luck.

 

Keep in mind also that the hackle from a different location on the cape may lay in the opposite direction and that can tell you a little something. Perhaps another cape sample? Also, if you've got an jewlers eye loop of magnifying glass, strip one side of the feather shaft and see if the shaft is at angle to its' centerline. Maybe wind the hackle backwards and see if you get the same result (you don't have to tie it off: trying to may cause all your tying thread to "flip-out" and you can lose the bug).

 

Again, best of luck. Perhaps it is a tension issue but only you will figure it out. Line up all the ducks and knock 'em down one at a time. It will become clear at some point.

[phg 0]

What kind (cape, saddle) and brand (Indian, Whiting, Collins, Metz, etc.) of hackle are you trying to use? That will have a major effect....

 

One think I do when I find a hackle to be a bit unruly is to stroke the fibers back as I wind. With each 1/2 warp, I brush it back. This not only keeps the barbs out of the way, it helps me to lay the next wind close to the previous ones. 5-7 winds are usually enough with a good quality hackle.

[billy 0]

thanks - more solid advice... type of hackle is hareline from JS. mostly saddle..

[deeky 0]

No need to go to the work of stripping any of the barbs. Just tie it in and stroke the barbs towards the back (or 'fold' the hackle). Less work and it takes less wraps to get the same outcome, meaning less bulk in the fly. If you really want them to lay back, tie and trim the butt of the hackle, pull the barbs back with your left hand and put a few wraps over the stem of the hackle (depending on the pattern).

[phg 0]

I don't think any of the Hareline saddles are dry fly quality. The barbs will be too long and too soft. In addition, the stems may be too thick and prone to twist. You need to get yourself at least a tier's grade cape. Keough is good, but I see Stockard is discontinuing that line. A 1/2 of a #3 Metz Rooster cape is still a pretty good deal. There are, of course, other brands and other sources....

[J. R. Caddick 0]

Billy, i assume that the Hareline saddle hackle you got from J Stockard are the same as what i carry in my shop. These saddles are great for tying buck bugs, bombers and are even okay for some trout dries that have palmered hackle but i wouldn't use them to hackle a traditional styled dry fly.

 

I suggest you get some Whiting or Hebert dry fly hackle and give it a try, you will be amazed at the difference that quality hackle makes. The Bronze grade Whiting would be a good place to start and if you want saddle hackle you can get it in 1/2 or 1/4 saddles. Hebert rooster saddles are another option and are fantastic hackle for very little money.

[billy 0]

thanks for the solid advice - I will purchase some new hackle and ty it from that perspective....