Al Beatty 0 Report post Posted August 30, 2004 Hi again TroutBum, You really got a good bunch of answers to your question. Good Job! Your final price is pretty close to mine. I will offer you one thought about supplying the beer. Don't! Your liability is incredible, especially if you are charging for the service with the beer included. It's a really nice social gesture but could be terribly expensive if your "customer/student" got in an accident on the way home from a lesson. Nuff said! A question along the same line and it is also a bridge I had to cross several years ago. When do you start charging a club for programs/tying demos? I usually do a program/demo per year for each of the 3 clubs I belong to in the greater Boise area. How far do you drive before you start expecting some type of compensation? 10 miles? 25 miles? 50 miles? 100 miles? More? What are you thoughts? The group? I'm really interested in what you all think. Take care & ... Tight Lines - Al Beatty www.btsflyfishing.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 30, 2004 Al, you ask about driving distances before seeking compensation. IMO, any time you drive to a club meeting to provide a workshop or demonstration, the club should reimburse you for gas mileage. Its a small thing but it adds up over time. I once discovered that I had driven over 3500 miles for the Boy Scouts in six months with no compensation, to attend meetings, put on demonstrations, etc. No one seemed to care, they just expected me to show up. Unless you gently suggest it, they'll keep welcoming you to show up and never think about your cost in being their entertainment. FWIW, I'm very interested in tying feather winged and full dressed Atlantic Salmon flies. But these days I find myself using the cheap subsitute feathers for the more expensive endangered species. If I ever get good enough to tie presentation flies, then I'll switch to the material in the old patterns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steeldrifter 0 Report post Posted August 30, 2004 Al i'll give you my thoughts on that for what its worth. Far as "when" do you start chargeing a club you belong to for demo's that really is more of a "case by case" situsation in my opinion. Meaning that someone of your stature that is well known and published, and would be considered an expert, i'd say you should easily be expected to be compensated for your time&experiance. But for the average guy that is not "known" shall we say, it would probaly depend more on how long they have been in the club and how good of friendships they have with the other members and also if the demos are "expected" by the group or more of something that the tyer is doing because he wants to do it. As for compensation for mileage, and again this is just my opinion, i'd say under 10 miles isnt really a big deal but anything over that then the price of gas and the time it takes to travel through some cities now'a days then some forum of compensation should be expected. BTW good point about the alcohol, you can never be to careful in todays world of lawsuit happy people SD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 30, 2004 LOL Dave, hope you thought of me in a good way in all that. LOL. Yeah, I agree about the way people are. I won't go into a spiel on it, don't want to roll this post off it's course more then it has. LOL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jim2Flies 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2004 Hey bum!! I have been wanting to reply for a while, but I have to shut down all security to post here. Don't know if it matters, but here is what I have been charging for several years. This is for classic Atlantics. $15 per hour and each student provides ALL materials. This is usually at my house. ___________________________ $75 per class and we tie a Colonel Bates or something similar. I provide ALL materials and some tools. Students repsonsible for vise and basic hand tools. This is with no rare materials, all subs. Minimum class size is 5 people although I have done it with 4 a few times. This is always at the local shop or I rent/use an apartment complex clubhouse occasionally. ________________________ I too hope the glass ceiling has been reached. For many years I have been an advocate for "realistic" prices on feathers. I have heard stories of people getting "X" feathers for pennies. They sat right there at dinner bragging about the whole thing. The next day they are selling for TOP dollar... because that is what the market is. Pishaw! Nothing wrong with making some profit and paying for your time/contacts/work, etc. but making your next three house payments is wrong. A lot of tiers love to find that bird breeder out there that has no idea. Buy for pennies and sell for millions. In my not so popular opinion this is wrong. Take care Ol cermudgeon Jim2Flies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 Jerry- All Good! (Q???- where did the thread "Track Off"???) Al- Expect a Email. Stev- You're not the only one; nothing ever changes, got LOTS of stories...don't really have an answer where it's BSA, but it always was a drain. Steve- Anecdotally, some of what I told Paul privately answers your Q&A. Ask him for a copy or if he says o.k., I'll send it to you. Jim- those funds are CDN, oui'/non??? (IMO, add $5/10 per seat. Second pricing structure looks like a sure winner. Corollary, either exactly on this same track or totally opposite: There's no reason for gasoline to be as expensive as it gets, either- NO FLAMES!!! Signed, Curmudgeon Chairman! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duffin Boy 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2004 Nothin to add that hasn't been said but ... DFix..... love the diatribe!!! Cheers Duff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 QUOTE (DFix @ Aug 31 2004, 10:21 AM) Stev- You're not the only one; nothing ever changes, got LOTS of stories...don't really have an answer where it's BSA, but it always was a drain. Signed, Curmudgeon Chairman! Whether it be BSA, the Red Cross, or your local religious home, any organization that uses volunteers will suck you in and drain you of all time and energy if you allow it to happen. I've been drained several times out of good will. You finally have to recognize at what point you want to draw lines of participation/non-participation and be willing to listen to others, who often contribute less than you, criticize your decision. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 I would have to say that somebody in Al's position should almost never do a demo for free. If he does one for free for a club and when the word spreads all the other clubs would want a freebie as well. If they didn't get a freebie they might feel cheated and might hold a grudge. So if I was in that position I would make every club pay something even if it is just gas/meals/lodging but if I had to really go out of my way it would cost them extra to make it worth my time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 In Al's case, I would bring along a bunch of materials and sell them to recover some of the cost of doing a demo. My club has a professional tyer come in once a year or so to do a demo and that's what he does. I don't do any more atlantic salmon fly demo's because down here in FL no one seems to care. I did a couple of club demo's where I tied hairwings and Rangeley streamers and no one watched. People would walk by look for a few seconds and walk away. Whereas a Clouser demo will attract 20 or 30 people around the tyer. At first I thought it was me then as an experiment, I did a demo and tied a Deciever and had a huge crowd. People here just care about flies they can fish. Dave Fix told me that his tying club has 700 menbers! I seriously doubt I could scrounge up 70 people in the Tampa Bay area to join a tyers club. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VARick 0 Report post Posted August 31, 2004 Let me add something as a newbie. I am a very basic beginner and have not found any local classes (I checked with the local Orvis store so far). I need to check with any local clubs. I would be happy to pay for a class(s). My interests are for saltwater tying at this time. As a previous shop owner (not fishing related) I found almost the same thoughts and experiences as posted above. People will always ask for information/advice about something you have knowledge about (my early years it was electronics and electrical work). A tactic I learned as an electrician was to pose the question to a fellow worker after being approached to do something. "Hey Joe.. what would you charge to install 3 outlet boxes in a basement workshop?" This being asked in front of the person asking you to do the work. This put it out there that you don't work for free, while not directly putting your rates out there. If they were willing to pay you it was then discussed. After opening a hobby shop and now bringing what use to be my hobby into a business it really rang true about the "how do you do this?". A lot of it was just plain good practice. However when I was selling a product that I built for racing purposes I never gave away details of what I did to make something faster/better. A customer said it best once to another customer who was hounding me for information one day. "Do you work for free Charlie? Gee but you are expecting Rick to work for free". That saying quickly spread to the club members. I didn't lose any sales... the questions just decreased for the items that I personally built. I however had to make sure my club customers got the pick of the really good stuff for racing. I also became a pit crew for my customers when we attended a Regional or National race. When you help a customer bring home a trophy.. later payment is never in question for services you provide. There is never a good answer on how to handle friends/customers/clubs when it comes to being compensated for your time and knowledge. Not much more said than has already been covered. Hopefully the newbie has not worn out his welcome before it starts. Rick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 I also said the large membership maintains its "membership" but is strewn about the country, and each meeting is generally attended by a core group. Somebody like Al would and should sell to cover costs. I think I explained this in my diatribe (Thanks, Duff!)- Paul, you're not alone in that level of interest thing. Right now, the sway seems to be toward tying saltwater patterns. Most of the members crowd around the saltwater patterns being demonstrated; freshwater stuff seems to be boring; I'm sure there are cyclical movements in this area. [bits and pieces of what I talked to Paul about] When we propose a pattern in the Roundtable (club monthly newsletter), we give a stock list so a member can come prepared to do that pattern. That's ALL supposed to be on the member, above and beyond monthly 'dues' ($5 members; $10 non-members, which helps to pay for the hall and stuff) - Instructors buy and supply their own materials and reasonably expect members to do the same. Unless the instructor specifies that all materials will be supplied at the time of the meeting, everybody (supposedly) comes with what they need. If a Newbie or an occasional visitor shows up empty handed, they are supplied with tools and materials to do the pattern. Some members will cart along materials they are promoting for sale for their newest, most killer-can't-live-without-and-have-to-have pattern One or two members will specify in the newsletter that materials for their pattern demonstration may be supplied for a fee; that doesn't rope the member into buying them from the instructor, it just gives the opportunity to participate if interested. Several times it has been the proposal of members to different instructors to do same. Other times, relatively well-known, sustaining members, who may or may not be regular attendees, have been asked to speak or demonstrate at a tying table. A specific occasion comes to mind when the member asked "what are you going to pay me?" It really doesn't matter what club or group fills in the name blank- it all boils down to individual expectations and the politics consistent with the group's "mission statement." (Gee, where have we heard THAT before?) Rick said it perfectly: "There is never a good answer on how to handle friends/customers/clubs when it comes to being compensated for your time and knowledge." Lousy part about it is it creates attitudes and presumptions about people's motives. Paul, Jim, Al, - anybody qualified or capable of doing so- DO NOT sell yourself short. (p.s.- Rick - as a Newbie, you can find thousands of patterns on the Web- here, at FAOL, Virtual Fly Box, Danica, and so forth. And, if you have a problem or specific question you are free to ask; we have many talented tiers here who're willing and happy to help solve rookies' problems - pretty soon you won't be a Rookie, either! Welcome Aboard!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 QUOTE Lousy part about it is it creates attitudes and presumptions about people's motives. Boy, ain't that the truth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 To the member who graciously sent me an audio version of Dave's earlier reply, would you please do the same for the above post. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Report post Posted August 31, 2004 Is anyone here interested in making themselves $20 pocket money to go to Will's house and the outta him for me? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
