bowfin47 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2012 ...Bowfin is 100% correct... Bowfin have you come to the Toledo Bend Rendezvous in the past? Ray Ray, I've only been to North Toledo Bend Rendezvous for almost every year since we started it about 23 years ago... Kyle a.k.a. Bowfin47 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perchjerker 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2012 The Skunk just arrived at the Wedding Reception! Ray, as someone trained in the sciences, I find it startling that you would make such an absolute statement as to say that "...you can get all of the deer hides you want and still won't get the quality offered by WAPSI..."! WAPSI has to get their hides from somewhere; usually from hunters via local hide merchants. As a Bell County native, we had a saying that: "A blind hog is going to find an acorn every now and then". Also, implying that using hair from an untanned hide is fruitless, is misleading, at best. IT CAN BE DONE! It is just very trying and befraught with unnecessary aggravations that a tanned hide eliminates; but still NOT IMPOSSIBLE TO DO! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Ray 0 Report post Posted March 5, 2012 As a Bell County native, we had a saying that: "A blind hog is going to find an acorn every now and then". I'm sorry I offended you! As a McLennan County, Texas native, I just assumed the person who asked the question originally didn't want to spend the time it takes a blind hog to find an acorn in Central Texas right now hunting for good quality deer hair for tying from friends who hunt. Acorns are in pretty short supply, as are deer pelts with hair anywhere approaching the quality of the WAPSI PREMO Deer hair Strips, but if you've got the time and inclination to hunt acorns with blind hogs and occasional decent deer hides, have at it.......Good Luck!! Also, implying that using hair from an untanned hide is fruitless, is misleading, at best. IT CAN BE DONE! Most things can be done, but doing something that often ends up non-productive is pretty much a waste of time, effort, and often money, so why waste the time doing it, when you only get rare good results, and great results are only a small purchase away. WAPSI buys a lot of deer hides. I don't know where they get them from but its a good bet their thick haired strips don't come from Southern deer, and there are many of us who live in the South, so Southern deer are all we can access. WAPSI has experience in selection and tanning, and they have the resources and long associations with collection sites, enabling the company to find and accumulate the deer hides with the quality hair many of us buy. I have none of those and every deer killed does not have good tying hair or close to it. For those reasons, I buy all I use even though I have a building behind the clinic with quite a few tanned deer hides inside. For me, it comes down to a decision between time spent to accomplish a task, cost, and results. Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perchjerker 0 Report post Posted March 7, 2012 Ray... First, you did NOT offend me! Your points are all well made; and I agree, as native Texan; BUT, unfortunately, not everyone lives in our great state! However, it should be remembered that whitetail deer are not confined to our home state; but that they range well into Canada; and, that there are a few northeners on here who are in excellent positions to take advantage of the results of Bergman's Rule (in the biological world). For the individual tier, the hide off of a 350-400 lb., or possibly larger, northern whitetail (NOT one of our 80-95 lb. Central Texas 'overgrown' coyotes), if properly cared for from the beginning, should provide a life-time's supply of quality hair; especially if someone else has gone to the trouble to kill, clean, and skin the deer, and gives you a fresh 'green' hide. And you have the ENTIRE hide to select from; not just a 2.5 inch by 15 inch strip (PREMO). Also, dyeing your own opens up a whole new realm to our very enjoyable 'avocation' (kind'a like rollin' your own!). I did not say, or even imply, that working with a dried 'green' hide was easy; I just noted that one CAN use the hair from such a piece if they want to. I can personally testify as to how aggravating it is to do so. I definitely DO NOT recommend it. However, and most unfortunately, so much of the died deer body hair patches one finds in the shops today are just short of dried 'green' hides. Given this, what is one to do? Not every tier has need for a complete PREMO strip. Regards from Ft. Bend County! PS: How did we manage to not cross paths during my six year stint in Waco during the mid-1990's? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SilverCreek 0 Report post Posted March 7, 2012 I don't know Royce Dam Ray That's not unusual. Royce is the best fly tier no one has ever heard of. But IMHO, he is the best fly tier in the midwest. He won the FFF's Buz Buszek Memorial Fly Tying Award in 1994. This the Federation of Fly Fisher's highest award for fly tying. Royce's Stars and Stripes SalmonFly Royce's Arctic Shrew Royce ties the Arctic shrew without any shaping or clipping of the hair. So the body of the shrew is not clipped but is tied to have a fur like appearance. Royce also uses this same method to tie a muddler minnow. he ties the head perfectly formed without clipping or cutting after it is tied. He ties in the hair so it is perfectly formed when he ties it down. Amazon.com: Practical Fly Tier, The (9780811710275): Royce Dam: Books http://cgi.ebay.com/Tying-Hair-Flies-Techniques-DVD-Royce-Dam-GREAT-NEW-/200413443336#ht_500wt_898 http://www.amazon.com/Fly-Tying-Techniques-Royce-Dam/dp/B002VUICMK Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SSMinnow 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 *grabs popcorn* ~ hehe just kidding guys. I have been following my post throughout and reading all replies everyday. I figured now was the time to chime back in. Life has taught me that everyone has their own opinion, and I respect each one of their opinions. It is nice to see a good discussion and back-and-forth. Unfortunately, the hide is too old to cure properly. It does not stink, smell, nor is it rotted; but it is not salvageable either for strips. I have no experience with deer hair length from southern states, but it can get very cold where i am from, and I have pulled hairs off that are any where from 3" to 5" in length. Now as being very new to tying, I think these hairs are even long enough for tying some healthy sized streamers. (anyone can correct me if i am wrong). IMHO they are even long enough to tie for hair jigs for walleyes for these parts. And I have some free hide to experiment with using the kool-aid dyes. I have gotten some great colors to come out, but unfortunately, the hairs have become too brittle. Still experimenting, and it could be a few different things. (I wont go into that here, because I have pages upon pages of logs) As for the WAPSI hair. I have seen that hair, and it is very nice. But in the end, it is only dyed deer hair. I will be able to figure out how to produce nice colored hair that retains its soft texture with some more experimenting. (Anyone can learn anything they want, if they have youtube ). So for the price I would spend for 1 or 2 strips of WAPSI, I can have a full deer hide cut and colored in a full range. (And I have a few friends that get a few deer each season.) That is just my $0.02 and if you find any fault in my way of thinking, you are more than welcome to reply back. Again, it was nice to hear from a couple different viewpoints, and thanks for posting on one of my first threads to help inform me with insight from seasoned guys. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 these are my observations: You will have Hell's own time trying to tie with hair that has already been removed from the skin. The absolute best deer hair (and tails) I have are from deer which I have shot myself or friends have shot. These are from Pennsylvania or points further north, in the winter. I have in my possession 2 "Premo" deer strips from Wapsi which are total crap for tying any deer hair bugs. The hair is extremely uneven in length, strongly curved, and quite solid (doesn't flare well). So, they are not ALL good. If the hair is slipping out of the skin, bacteria have begun to decompose the hide and there is nothing you can do to repair it. Taxidermists can sometimes "tighten" the hair chemically, but that is so mounted creatures don't shed all over the living room- for fly tying it doesn't apply. The deer hair and tails I have from our own deer are not tanned. They are thoroughly scraped, slightly stretched, dried with borax, then "broken" over the edge of a board or brick wall just enough to make them flexible but nothing like soft-tanned. I have absolutely no issues tying with this material. I'm pretty good with deer hair. I'm more picky about it than most people. I'll stand by my statements, period. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Ray 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 I hadn't realized deer hair could be so controversial and fun to discuss! Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Ray 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 I have in my possession 2 "Premo" deer strips from Wapsi which are total crap for tying any deer hair bugs. The hair is extremely uneven in length, strongly curved, and quite solid (doesn't flare well). So, they are not ALL good. If you don't like the strips you got, I imagine you can take them back. The stores where I buy will take returns if the product isn't up to standards, so return those and get better. No product is perfect, but when you're buying these strips, or any others, I check them if I am standing there looking at them, and if I'm not, I check them when they come in. If they aren't what I want, I send them back and get others until I am satisfied. Ray Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perchjerker 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 Once again, JZ is correct. And for his edification, the hair on a Central Texas deer, where Ray and I are from, is at best 1 1/2 inches long. The majority of those who have written about using Texas deer hair claim that it cannot be spun or stacked. WRONG!!! It makes great 'deer hair bugs' when tied on #8, or smaller hooks! It also works well wherever short deer hair is preferable; such as wings on No Hackles, etc. However, unquestionably, it will not make a deer hair bug on a 1 or 1/0 hook! Some 40 years ago, I decided that I was going to tan some of the hides from the deer that I killed. I checked out every book in the Houston, Texas library on taxidermy and tanning; decided on a method, and forged ahead. I had five hides that I wanted to tan. Only one out of the five came out reasonably soft. The other four were well tanned; but, as noted in my readings, all needed to be softened over a board to get them soft. From those readings, and my own personal experience, freshly tanned hides typically are not "soft"; but have to be rigorously worked to get make them soft; as JZ infers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted March 8, 2012 One of my non-premo strips was given to me and the other was mail ordered during an unexpected move... I don't remember where it came from. I'm not bitter about it but just wanted to point out again that deer hair is hugely variable in characteristics. I won't buy a piece of deer hair or a deer tail anymore without examining it in hand. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
