George Werbacher

16 hours ago, shoebop said:

Well said Mark!

Pat yourselves on the back you all deserve it. Thanks for saving me the headache of utilizing the forums resources to learn how to improve. We should burn all the books that don’t comply, maybe impose fines. You win..

side note..this is what was posted.insulting and rude. Not you Mark I understand and wish tour forum continued luck. Shoebop..isnt worth replying about..

33 minutes ago, niveker said:

There's a good number of foam bodied stimulators out there, most tied with stiff hackle, I tied this with ostrich herl and a softer hackle,  deer hair and foam for the float, softer hackle for movement and to keep it in the surface.  

That is a beautiful bug. Speechless.

39 minutes ago, George Werbacher said:

I wanted to share something I just tied about 10 minutes ago. It isn't about the pattern or how the fly looks..but 6 months ago I couldn't tie this let alone in 10 minutes. Can someone tell me whats unique about the fly?

 

It is done with a single feather.

6 minutes ago, Sandan said:

George,

If I may.

1: I watched part of your video and what I saw was just what I expected. You start out at the 30% point, then you overwrap "right up to the eye".  Here's a tip that just might help you.  Start where you want, but don't bring your thread all the way to the eye. Traditionally a hook eye or maybe two depending, of bare shank is left for the head. That way you have a visual reference point to not cross, call it the "no tie zone". If you if you stay out of the zone you won't be as susceptible to rushing the head. some times watching a video can help, particularly when it comes to technique. https://howtoflyfish.orvis.com/fly-tying-videos/techniques/986-how_to_make_a_neat_head_on_a_fly

2: We're all different but if when I was starting out a truly generous offer of the correct materials for a pattern was made available to me I'd jump at the opportunity.

and 

3: It's Lee Wulff, not Leo. "Lee Wulff (February 10, 1905 – April 28, 1991), born Henry Leon Wulff" which might help with the "Flatbush" and Uncle Leo references.

 

I will watch Orvis videos. I stay away from videos where the pattern doesn't match what I am working on or the person does there own unique take on a fly. I like the pictures but really want to learn the procedures like what you just shared. Leo just got stuck in my head and I have been known to call people by their wrong names for years. I was at the beach all weekend and asked Alexa to set the alarm. it never went off because it was the ice cube bucket. 

Good tip..will start today..start the thread two eye distances from the eye unless the pattern calls for something different. thank you

Just now, Moshup said:

It is unique because it is tied by you George.  Enjoy the benefits of  tying and the improvements will follow as

they already apparently have.  Lots of good guys on this board and they offer helpful good advice. 

having a little fun..rough day at work. It is actually something I was thinking about with all the talk about materials and cost. lol..my wife calls me unique and I am not sure if that is a compliment..lol

I wanted to share something I just tied about 10 minutes ago. It isn't about the pattern or how the fly looks..but 6 months ago I couldn't tie this let alone in 10 minutes. Can someone tell me whats unique about the fly?

5 minutes ago, niveker said:

@George Werbacher, Well, if nothing else, George, your posts certainly do create alot of comments.  

FWIW, your other post @ the Stimulator with foam body and ostrich herl got me to tie up a  Stimulator variant that I quite like and will submit to the real judges later this year.  If its a success I'll call it George's Stimulator, so no one's feathers get ruffled, pardon the pun.  I will post a pic in that topic later.

Keep on keeping on.      

Thats awesome. the truth is though is everyone  here participated in that one (beat me up almost as bad as the this one ( rename it The Royal Pain in A..)..How about the FTF Stimulator. Thats got a nice ring.

Just now, upnorthtier said:

George I was not trying to insulte you or get you to quite tying flies its all for fun. but the title of your video  is how to tie a royal wulff. how to=teaching

I know and actually respect your opinion. Critique the bug and I promise you if it is true..i will make another video as i get better and show how to improve. If the title was how to tie a professional bug, Bug video taught by a professional I would agree. Thats a lot of bugs..You need to make a video..probably do it blindfolded.

In my book. There are two things to becoming an expert. The first is the knowledge of the subject and without learning correctly it will never happen. The second is the motivation to keep learning and improving. The problem is we all start off motivated but lacking knowledge and after time we have the knowledge but the motivation is gone. I have the motivation and I can assure you I will develop the knowledge and keep the motivation.

thats is really a lot of bugs.

1 hour ago, Moshup said:

George,

A lot of these guys have a ton of stuff that they’ll probably  take to the grave with them . Maybe one of them will send

you a care package beforehand... 🙂

Yeah. 

In my book. There are two things to becoming an expert. The first is the knowledge of the subject and without learning correctly it will never happen. The second is the motivation to keep learning and improving. The problem is we all start off motivated but lacking knowledge and then we have the knowledge but the motivation is gone. I have the motivation and I can assure you I will develop the knowledge (especially when people try to act superior, offer crappy advice, or just be a troll). The problem with trolls is they belong under the bridge but ending up scaring the fish I am trying so hard to learn how to catch.

9 minutes ago, upnorthtier said:

George, I think its ok for you to post vids on you tube, but I would remove the how to in the title. you only been tying flies for 8 months and your making how to videos. misleading for others trying to learn some of these patterns. might be because of subpar materials but I think its lack of experience. I tie quite a few wulffs every year 500 or so maybe. I sell or trade them to fly shops. if you want ill send you everything you need for tying the royal wulff.

I will pass on that. The idea is you dont have to be an expert to tie them and fish with with them. I add how long I have been tying so people might have the confidence to give it a try. I dont offer to sell them, or teach, I just share. Cmon man..you only have to be an expert to post something on Youtube or share. I dont even have any more of response to that..

I should just give up..call it quits and not try and learn correctly..maybe buy them from you or a shop. 

32 minutes ago, mikemac1 said:

George,

Over the 55+ years I've tied a lot of flies for both trout, warm water species and saltwater.  Whenever I want to embark on a new pattern that I haven't tied before, especially if it is somewhat complex like the Royal Wulff, I try and get my hands on a well tied reference copy.  Photos and You Tube videos are great, but having a properly tied, properly proportioned fly in-hand does wonders for helping you tie a better fly.  Try and replicate that reference fly in as much detail as possible, then branch out with your own style as you see fit.  If your first attempts don't replicate the reference fly, keep trying and researching info on the tying techniques that will help you solve problematic elements of your ties.

Mike

Thanks,

.best advice ever...I have said and been told the same thing in art reproduction for years. Do you have an extra one tied by Leo or Joan I can take apart. Lol, just messing around. The critiquing on this forum actually motivates me to more hours on the vice paying attention to subtle details. With each tie I take more and more notes and practice more and in a few months will revisit and compare. In a few years maybe I will be able to post here with a few less obvious mistakes. The only people who don’t make mistakes are the ones not doing anything.

5 hours ago, flytire said:

in your video you state ostrich herl but youre using peacock herl

why did you tie in the hackle by the tip?

if its a dry fly why tie it on a "nymphing hook"?

see the video below

 

additional information/history

Over My Waders

Quack Coachman or is it a Royal Wulff? - Sparse Grey Matter

"Hair-wing Royal Coachman- Fly Angler's OnLine Volumn 7 week 21

Don’t really watch other videos. Just books and photos. Didn’t catch that ostrich and peacock mix up and will have to correct that. I tie in by the tip because I always crowd the eye. Rookie mistake. I am also confused on video title..I was tying a royal Wulff and not a coachman and pretty sure some subtle differences. Thank you for the great feedback. I don’t do other peoples videos because I really try hard for my own interpretation and hope people like you point out the mistakes. 
 

I am on a really limited budget for materials and find the best hook I can. Someone posted that I shouldn’t tie without proper materials. Lol...been oil painting for years and never told anyone not to paint without specific materials. We learn to adapt and work with what we have on the table.

27 minutes ago, Moshup said:

Lol.  You nailed it Jaydub. 

lol

Just now, skeet3t said:

Many years ago, Lee Wulff was on an episode of Walker Cay Chronicles. Lee and Flip Pallot were trout fishing in Colorado. Lee tied a Royal Wulff freehand! He said he tied flies for two years before someone told him about a vise. The RW is one of the classic patterns. Nice fly. You need to field test it now.

14 days and counting till I open the camp. 
 

 I started tying in August of last year and have dived in head first. The name Leon and Joan Wulff came up so much in my readings I was in awe at the detail and time spent taking this sport to such a high level. I realized the more I learned that I was only touching the very tip of so much passion and knowledge trying to be shared. This pattern has stood the test of time, can be fished all season, and so many patterns have sprung from this pattern. I wanted to share the base and hopefully expand this into a series of patterns who drew their inspiration from it.

Rolling out the carpet..or shall I say the red silk skirt for The Royal Wulff.  

I wanted to thank everyone for their input and will be trying these different techniques and correcting the issues.

9 minutes ago, mikemac1 said:

George, tying on the wing of the EHC has always been the biggest challenge for tiers.   After watching your video, I noted you used what seems to be the most logical approach—tie and trim.  Kelly Galloup takes a different approach—trim and tie.  Once I started using the trim and tie approach, my EHC came out much cleaner and neater.  Watch the end of his video to see how he does it, then give it a try.

Awesome. I will skip to the end and check it out. I would love to be able to trim first and make it right. It would’ve like painting behind the light switch plate first instead of trying to paint around the plate after. Gig list is getting longer. Thanks again

22 minutes ago, SilverCreek said:

Thanks for the compliments. I do appreciated them.

Here's one additional tip. Notice where I tied off the hair. It is well back of the eye of the hook. Note that this leaves the hook eye easily accessible for threading the eye with your tippet. In the EHC, the clump of hair in front of the tie off is supposed to represent the head of the caddis fly so leave space in front of that for the hook eye.

What. A rookie crowding the eye. That rarely ever happens. I learn my lesson with that one at 5:30 in the morning, standing in a river, trying to tie in the fly. I end up cursing so bad all the fish start practicing social distancing. Thanks and will ad to my gig list.

11 minutes ago, Sandan said:

@Moshup true dat. @SilverCreek great info presented.

Thanks

23 minutes ago, SilverCreek said:

The elk hair caddis was designed as a fast water fly and to imitate the skittering caddis by twitching and skating the fly on the hackle tips. It was not meant to be a slower water fly.

Al Troth, when he first published his EHC, noted that the EHC should be tied with hair that did not flair, but this type of hair is difficult to find especially for smaller patterns and now virtually every EHC now is tied with a prominent flared wing.

Did you also know that the EHC is not in the Gary LaFontaine's "Caddisflies”? The reason is that the EHC, as it is most often tied, is not a very realistic caddis fly pattern. Most EHC pattern are tied with hollow hair which flairs. When tied, this hair will flair up and form a wing that extend up over the body rather than down flat as a real caddis fly.

Gary Lafontaine makes the following observation about the dry fly patterns in his book, “There are some notable absences in the selections. There are no patterns with upright wings. This type generally recommended as an imitation of a fluttering caddisfly is not very effective when trout are feeding selectively, even if the adults are fluttering. When the natural begins unfolding its wings it usually flies off very quickly and such a transitory moment is not worth imitating. The tent wing fly is usually better because it imitates the insect at rest.”

The second caddis bible is Larry Solomon and Eric Leiser's "The Caddis and the Angler" published in 1977. "The Caddis and the Angler" has the elk hair caddis pattern on pg 200. You will notice that the hair on the pattern is tent like and does NOT flair much. See below for Al Troth's original EHC:

During an interview with Al Troth before his death, Al's son talks about his father's EHC. Go to 5:35 in the video below and you will see the EHC as it is meant to be tied.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR27csOJPVc

My version tied with low flair hair.

Why then is the EHC so popular? Well it is a great fast water fly and a fluttering caddis fly, it is easily tied, it is a high floater, it is easy to see, and it is durable. But is is NOT IMHO the best fly for calm waters. It is not an all around fly. It can be a better fly for calm waters if you clip the bottom hackles off flat to the hook, and clip off some of flaired deer hair to give the wing a flatter profile.

Here are three keys to a flatter EHC wing:

1. Selection of the right hair/material for the wing. Since hollow hair flares, select material that is less hollow. Either less hollow deer/elk hair; another animal like woodchuck, squirrel tail; synthetic material like polypropylene.

Test the deer/elk hair. Do the pinch test to see how the hair flares. Most of the pre-packed hair is not very good or EHCs. Occasionally you find good package, but that is the exception.

I wrote about proper hair selection here:

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/general-fly-tying-discussions/251936-selecting-deer-elk-hair-comparaduns.html

2. Learn the proper technique to tie in the hair. Use the pinch with the noose method:

http://www.flytyingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=81429&p=630123

3. If you must tie an EHC with hollow hair, bend the hook at the tie in point so the flared hair or wing material lies parallel to the body.

http://www.garyborger.com/2011/06/08/poly-caddis/

Here is a tying tip to make the wings flatter.  If you dub the body so that it has a "reverse taper" so that it is thicker at the tail of the fly and then narrows at the head end of the fly, the wing will lie flatter on the body. Then there will be no "bump" at the front edge of the dubbing to lift the wing up.

Another way to tie the fly with a flat wing is to bend the front 1/3 of the hook up at a 30 degree angle. Then tie the hair on this bent section. The 30 degree up angle will angle the tied hair DOWN 30 degrees and it will lie flat over the back of the fly. Tie it in the manner that Gary Borger ties his Poly Caddis

 

 

Sorry for hijacking the thread. If the above makes you examine how you tie the EHC and how the wing really should look, all the better. Hopefully, the next time you try an EHC in the right color and size and the fish refuse, you'll think about this post and trim the fly. 

 

 

 

Thanks. No problem hijacking. I don’t watch videos (as an artist you really impedes your development in creating a unique style. I do research like you provided. There is so many different sources and variations. I like yours and will definitely give them a try. The images I found on a traditional had the body hair extending past the barb so was hesitant on trimming. Thanks for sharing and like Office Space has showed us you could never have enough flair.

she does need a trim though. I will chalk it up to COVID.

28 minutes ago, niveker said:

Didn't watch the video, but nice small head in the photo, like Mr. Troth originally tied.  Being the heathen that I am, I like to trim the under hackle above the hook point.    

Thanks. I will have to try some smaller feathers and get out of the habit of using the biggest I can find. No worries if you don't watch the video I appreciate the feedback more. The trout wont watch the videos either and only seem interested in the finished result (if I'm lucky).

I wanted to share an Elk Hair Caddis with the group. This bug has really nice characteristics and is a joy to tie. I love the similarities with a Stimulator but how different materials create a different fly altogether. I hope you all like it.

I tie a Charlie Cricket I use for my site mascot. He is fun to tie and actually fishes quite well on the windy days around the shore line. 

Video link: https://youtu.be/NyOwkVFjYWU

Great style and tying and applaud the originality. thanks for sharing

15 minutes ago, skeet3t said:

I have often considered tying with a thin strip of foam for flotation. Nice fly, BTW.

thanks. 

The new link to tying the foam Stimulator. https://youtu.be/FXGNfYk8GKw