Capes and Saddles...so confused!

[hyperbaricstalker 0]

As I try to go through Charlie Craven's Basic book, there's several times he lists "so and so hackle" or "_______ cape". Is there a difference in whiting and hebert miner? I know they're both out of whiting but they're listed different on the website. The flies i'm trying to learn are as follows. I'm listing the fly - how it's phrased in the book - what I believe is the correct hackle...

 

Prince Nymph - Brown hen neck or saddle in (larger sizes) - ?Hebert-Miner Hen Cape Brown?

 

EHC - Brown Genetic Rooster neck - ?Whiting Rooster Cape Brown?

 

Stimulator - Grizzly Rooster Neck Hackle - ?Whiting Rooster Cape Grizzly?

 

Royal Wulff - Two brown rooster neck or saddle feathers - ?Whiting Rooster Cape Brown?

 

Humpy - Brown and Grizzly rooster hackle - ?Whiting Rooster cape in both colors?

 

I understand rooster or hen and cape vs saddle, I just dont understand when buying it from whiting, what kind of whiting to buy and when he list "hackle" if there's a "hackle" he is referring to, if he says "neck or saddle" which is better to use.

 

Please help this lost boy! lol

[narcodog 0]

Saddles have a very narrow range of sizes. Capes have a wide range of sizes say 6 down to 24 for most necks. Hebert feathers are an older generation of birds. They don't have as wide range a range of sizes so they are not as costly. If you are just starting out tying that's what I would recommend. As far as hen just but necks Hebert Miner are good and a little less the the Whitting.

With saddles if you are tying a particular size flies and I mean a lot then saddles would suit you. You can also Whitting 100's to me they are not a great bargin.

 

You can also buy some Metz, Kehough or something else.

[utyer 0]

First, the difference between neck (capes) and saddles. The neck is from the top of the head down to the start of the back. The saddle is from the back. On a rooster, the necks will contain a larger size range, usually from size 30 to over 4 will be found on Whiting Premium grade necks. The Whiting saddles have a smaller size range, usually only three to 4 different sizes. Saddles have been developed with very little web, and very long feathers. Saddles can provide you with a good quantity of usable dry fly hackle in a smaller range of sizes. Each individual feather (hackle) can be used on more than one fly. Many times a single saddle hackle will be enough for 4 to 6 flies. Since all feathers have some taper, the last flies from a single saddle hackle may have to be a smaller size.

 

The rachis or stem of the neck hackles is a little thicker, and they are usually shorter (much shorter) than a saddle hackle. Since the stem of a saddle is thinner, more wraps can be made in a smaller area. In a saddle you will find the best hackles along the outter edges of the patch, sometimes the center feathers have a little too much web, but the tip few inches may still yeild dry fly hackle. The butt sections of these same hackles would be for buggers or nymphs.

 

The Herbert Minor hackles are a less expensive series of hackles offered now by Whiting Farms. I haven't had to purchase too many of them, but the ones I do have seem to have more web in the feathers, and the sizes of the individual feathers run larger more quickly as you move down the neck.

 

From your quotes from the book, I see that the listings all call for Rooster Neck hackle from a Whiting Cape.

 

I have tied all my hackled dry flies with Saddle hackle for years, without any problems. In a pattern such as the Stimulator, the saddle hackle works out better since they have less taper over the length of the body. I have been lucky enough to find Whiting saddles over the years that have hackles as small as 18 and 20. These are much harder to find (or at least they were when I was looking,) than the 12, 14, and 16 sizes.

 

One problem you may have these days is the lack of availablity of ANY hackles. The hair fashion industry has been grabbing up saddle hackles over the last 6 months or so, and pretty much wiped out the stocks. Since the harvest of the birds is an periodic thing, there won't be any more until next fall or spring. Now I hear that the hair fashions are reaching into the shorter broader neck hackles as well. This is not only making it hard to find, but driving up prices. Hopefully, this fashion trend will play itself out, and the prices will come back to a normal range.

[hyperbaricstalker 0]

Thanks for the replies. Let me make sure I have this right. First question though is, are there both capes and saddles from both a hen and rooster? or is it just a rooster cape and hen saddle?

 

What I'm understanding is that saddles have a similar taper throughout the feather say one saddle will have a consistent hackle gauge while a cape has a lot more taper so will have a wide range of sizes to tie?

 

What am I going to notice in quality. I've seen some "pro grade" stuff on ebay for what looked like a half way decent price and just didnt know if it's something I should take advantage of.

 

is 30$ a good price for a Whiting Farms Rooster Cape Medium Brown Pro Grade?

[perchjerker 0]

The answer to your first question is YES! Saddle and cape refer to the area on the body where they come from; and, as both hens and roosters have the same body parts, or areas, they both produce 'saddles' and 'capes'. The significant difference between hens and roosters is that the hens DO NOT produce the the long slender feathers in either area that roosters do. Thus, there is very little difference between the saddle and the cape from hens; unlike that found on roosters.

 

With respect to your second question, the 'taper' is a function of each individual feather, and is consistent for the feather, be it cape or saddle.The significant difference is that there is a very large range of sizes in a cape; whereas, the feathers on a saddle are much more uniform in size, resulting in a very narrow range of sizes on any given saddle; restricting the size range of the flies that can be tied with a saddle.

 

Having started tying when the only thing readily available as hackle were the imported Chinese and Indian capes, or necks, one did well to find a neck (cape) that had sizes down to 20, with 18's being the smallest size in any abundance, as a general rule. Today's genetic capes will go down to a 32 in some instances, with 28's being more the norm in the smaller sizes. It is, to a certain extent, the presence of these sizes that put the cape in the 'premium' grade range, and thus, price range. Unless one is going to tie these smaller sizes, a #3 grade neck will provide feathers in all of the typical size ranges down to a few in the 22 size range. The saddles were not found as such, as we find today.

 

A saddle may be mostly all 14's, 16's 18's, etc. (these sizes are for example only, and are not meant to reflect the actual sizes on any given saddle), limiting to tying only these sizes. The flip side of this is that, as has already been noted, you may be able to properly hackle as many as six flies with a single feather. If these sizes are predominately what you plan to tie, a saddle will be your best investment. Saddles are not graded; just the necks, or capes, are graded.

 

"Grade" is a function of several different aspects of the cape, and is determined on a case-by-case basis. The over all number, and condition of the feathers, their length for each size, and the size range that can be tied with that cape are just three of the criteria used in grading them. Please note that there is no STANDARD for grading between breeders! Each has their own set of criteria; but the noted criteria are generally used by all. A "Pro" grade is one that will best suit the needs of a commercial tier, whereas, the Premium grade is best suited for the individual who specializes in tying the smallest of flies.

 

If there is any way you can get to a shop, I would highly recommend that you do so, and ask for someone to show, and explain to you, the differences between saddles, capes, and their grades.

 

aged_sage

[narcodog 0]

Since you are just starting, yes $30.00 for a Pro grade is fine. If you can find them Whitting has a pack of a half grizzle and a half brown cape that is a good deal. Search JS Stockard and see what they have.

[tidewaterfly 0]

hyperbaricstalker, since you're new to this & not yet sure what you need, I will offer you this additional advise. If you're tying dry flies stick with brand name hackle. Whiting is likely the best, but Metz is not bad either. I say this because as perchjerker stated with his excellent post, there is no standard for grading hackle, it's really the opinion of the person doing the grading. You will find "pro grade" hackle listed on Ebay & even in some fly shops, that is not really good hackle for tying dry flies. "Pro Grade" is usually the lower grade, having such things as too many pin feathers or possibly damaged feathers, and a limited range of small sizes, or too much web in the feathers. This type of hackle may come from sources that are not well known, and there are folks who will sell this type of hackle as dry fly hackle, when in fact it may not be. This is nothing wrong with buying this type if you're tying wet flies, especially Woolly Buggers, or bass or saltwater flies, but not all hackle is suitable for tying dry flies. There are other brands that are very good for tying dry flies, and are well known by the folks here who frequently tie them. The better brands, like Whiting, when they say it's dry fly hackle, then it is unless someone is being totally dishonest.

 

When in doubt, ask a question! With the extreme prices being charged for saddle hackle due to the current hair fashion craze, there are a lot of saddles being listed on Ebay. Several months ago, you could buy some "Pro Grade" for $15 to $20 each, but now the prices are much higher. Don't get stuck with paying too much for something that is not suitable for tying dry flies.

[hyperbaricstalker 0]

Thanks guys, it's explaining a lot.

 

Not to toot my own horn, but I'm tying nicer flies than I can find in the specialty shops. My background is 20 years of art, and a bit of a perfectionist. Needless to say I'm taking my time on my flies, but I've only been tying for about two weeks.

 

Here's the 4th CJ I've tied.

 

 

Anywho, so trying to summarize what I've received from all of this.

 

Capes/Necks come from obviously the neck region.

 

Saddles are the upper back area.

 

Rooster Capes/Necks will have a variety of sizes ranging from 10 to 22, and the nicer the quality...ie Gold or #1, the greater the chances of finding smaller sized hackle included like for a size 28.

 

Saddles are more consistent with in a size region. ie a saddle can range from 10-14 or 14-18 so to speak, just contain more feathers whithin the range.

 

Roosters capes and saddles will both be generally longer than that of the comparable hens feathers. (hence the bit more of a price?)

 

Qualities range in Pro-grade>Bronze>Silver>Gold or #3>#2>#1

 

You get what you pay for (unless you went to ebay)

 

Now for more questions

 

What exactly is the "webbing"? Im guessing "webbing" is not good?

 

For someone starting out, I'm thinking it's smartest to get rooster cape as it will allow me to tie a range of sizes, and also can buy the Whiting Introductory which is 1/2 Cape of Brown, Grizzly, Cream, And Dun which I believe are the 4 major colors?

 

Saddles are only necessary when you know you're tying a ton a couple sizes?

[Jaydub 0]

What exactly is the "webbing"? Im guessing "webbing" is not good?

 

The individual fibers of a hackle feather have some fuzzy stuff near the base of each fiber. That is what we are calling web. Hen hackles tend to have webbing that extends well up each fiber and the fibers are soft. That is fine and even desirable for wet flies. Premium genetic rooster hackles have little to no web and have stiff fibers. That makes them best for dry flies.

 

The cost of rooster vs hen hackles has more to do with the value and scarcity of genetic rooster hackle than length. A barnyard hen might have perfectly acceptable wet fly hackles. But good dry fly hackle is much harder to come by.

 

Your Copper John looks great by the way.

[perchjerker 0]

Let me first add a couple of overlooked points in my first post. There are some significant differences between 'genetic' hackle (capes) and the Chinese and Indian necks. The feathers on a 'genetic' neck are much longer than on an Indian or Chinese cape. The latter are birds raised for the market; NOT for their feathers. The necks are simply a marketable 'by product'. It typically takes only one feather from a 'genetic' cape to properly hackle a dry fly. It may take as many as three feathers from a Chinese/Indian neck to do the same job of hackling, due to the shortness of these feathers.

 

On the other hand, the genetic capes DO NOT have the nice rounded feather tips sought after for hackle tip wings on dry flies! The Chinese and Indian stuff is so superior in this attribute as to make the 'genetic' stuff a waste!

 

There is still a place in every dry fly tiers cache of necks for all three types; 'genetic', Chinese, and Indian!

 

Now, to your most recent questions.

 

In my own personal experience, for hackling dry flies all you need are a brown and a grizzly; nothing more! The only other color I have ever used more than a couple dozen feathers of is Cree. It is an excellent substitute for the brown/grizzly combo, such as for an Adams. I may be a heretic, or an iconoclast, or both; but I do NOT stick strictly to the 'recipe' for a given fly. It must be remembered: The fish DO NOT read our books, and the color of the 'wings' above water may be indiscernible to them. It is colors UNDER the water surface that they can distinguish.

 

Assuming you plan on tying only dry flies, the answer to your second question is: YES!

 

If you venture off into saltwater flies, and bass/bream bugs, we are now in an entirely different ballgame; which probably should be left for another time, and thread. It really can get crazy, and confusing, in these realms of fly tying.

 

Regards,

 

aged_sage

[tidewaterfly 0]

You're doing very well! Very nice fly! But, work on your photo's!

 

You get what you pay for (unless you went to ebay)

 

Yes & no! That was the point of my post, just make sure you are getting what you're paying for. Nothing more frustrating than to be told a material will be suitable for a specific purpose, and it's not. Makes learning difficult, and you won't get the desired end result.

 

I've gotten some great deals on Ebay, so it doesn't hurt to look there, but you do have to know what it is you're getting & how much it's really worth. Nothing wrong with getting good deals & saving money when you can either!

 

I've purchased several saddles from sellers on Ebay, and some of them have been Hareline's brand. They've all been real nice, but I bought them to tie Woolly Buggers, not dry flies. Hareline is a great company with very good products, but they don't produce their own hackle. They buy from other suppliers. If you start tying Woolly Buggers, or other sinking flies that require palmered wraps (spiraled wraps along the hook) then buying a saddle suitable for this purpose is a good idea. You can use that good quality dry fly hackle, but as Jaydub has indicated, something with more web (ie: a saddle) that is not really suitable for dry flies, is a better choice & often more desirable!

 

In your original post, the Prince nymph, and most other wet flies or nymphs that specify a hackle collar or beard, could be tied with hen neck or saddle hackle, or a cheap quality rooster neck or saddle feather that has some web to the feathers. Good dry fly hackle could also be used, but you would get a different look to it, and most likely not a desired result.

 

There is a purpose for every material. Many times, a single type of material can be used for multiple purposes, or multiple materials can be used for a single purpose. Sometimes, the purpose of some materials is just to have more for the retailers to sell, or more for us tiers to collect, but as you tie more patterns, you'll find there are more different materials that are specified!

 

Welcome to the addiction!

[Hypobaricstalker 0]

Thanks guys.

 

Yeah the picture was a quick clip with my iphone. It was hard to get it to zoom in one that as the minimal zoom distance is like 1.3 feet. I was lucky to get it that clear lol.

 

As far as addiction, I think that's an under statement.

[narcodog 0]

If you got to Global Fly fisher.com they have some good photo's on webbing. Something I should have mentioned is that Hebert and Collins necks have colors that are consistent with the older colors from the Catskill era.Those chickens came from Doc Frye and Harry Darby. Another breeder with very good feathers is Conranch.

 

The Whitting Hebert Pro grade has long hackles with a good amount of webbing but usually you will not need the whole feather. What you do is pinch off the webbing and use what you need.

 

When you get into grading most of the top name breeders do this. They grade on the number of flies that a neck or saddle will tye. Even the three's will have about the same amount of webbing as a one but the one will tye more flies.

[Hypobaricstalker 0]

Thanks again guys. Last question now. Anyone know of a place I can find the Whiting Rooster Full Cape 1/2 Brown !/2 Grizzly, in Bronze or Silver?

[beadhead 0]

Hypo

Check out JStockard

http://www.jsflyfishing.com/cgi-bin/category/75000