JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted October 1, 2011 Very well said........but you stole my JUST BECAUSE's.............ahhahahahha ... Just because you are old, doesn't mean you know better than younger people just because you have been doing something for a long time, doesn't mean you do it well It's "not just because I have many more years of fly fishing and years studying the subject by reading from the famous fishers and tiers."......or, maybe it is! My point really is not their age and few years of experience as much as it is that such a guide as I described (complaining about rivers being crowded with fishermen) has no right to complain as the rivers are not "his" for his money making gig. Don't be too sensitive about not having a lot of experience though Amen. We were all young and dumb once, but most of us got over it fairly early. It's not ALL the young guides, but there are enough out there to sour the whole barrel. In my experience these are also usually the arrogant douchebags who feel they deserve to take 3 parking spots with their dually pickups (which they'll be paying on for 17 years...well no, usually Daddy will be paying) and are too full of themselves to know better. That is, until someone who has actually been around the block a few times gets sick of it and puts them in their place. It's fun to watch. It's not so much they think they are entitled to things, it's just that they tend to be arrogant and inconsiderate in everything they do. Much as I love to fly fish, I won't even consider going out west during the summer even if I could afford it. I've run into nearly the same story here in the east, at a shop on the Yellow Breeches. A young guy who guides out of that shop talking about how none of his "clients" in the past week could fish, and how there were too many people fishing the "good" stretches. I haven't been back in that shop since. I'll catch bass and trout here, show folks how to do it, give away some flies, and have a good time. I won't do it perfectly, neither will they, and I won't pi## anyone off either. A little respect goes a LONG way. If you're old and have been doing something successfully for a long time, chances are you have it pretty well figured out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
H.Champagne 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2011 good thread. The transition in any sport from one generation to another can be rough. What was hip and cool and proper before can change drastically in the next gen. The new generation of fly anglers are those who are going to be (or are now in someways) responsible for maintaining the sport. What is important, i think, is continual respect. Respect the older generation for they have their values, experience, and knowledge. Respect the younger generation because they will be carrying this beautiful sport onward. The more we can learn from both sides the better things will be. That said, no one likes a guide who is a prick. A guide who is complaining about too many people being interested in what he gets paid to do is just ridiculous. All those licenses for those people fishing helps pay to maintain what we all enjoy. If he was really a great "guide" for what the term means, he should possess all the tools to get away from those people and catch some awesome fish. His complaints may just be a sign of inadequacy. But i also feel that there are some young people out there who have fly fished for 10 years or less who are absolutely great fly anglers. The big difference between the older gen and the new is that we (myself included) have the internet to aid us along when before, you learned from your parents or peers or possibly books. Say i want to learn how to roll cast, or mend better, or tie a better BWO, i can find fifty videos on youtube or FTF showing me how. We have access to so much information, but that also means that we (young generation) have no excuse for not being grateful. This post is a little too long! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyFishin'Jam 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2011 a rant is fine, i heard this guy yesterday talking at the spey clave about people who would call him up and complain about the river 'oh there are so many people and morons, there is so much garbage etc etc' He did a little speech about 'giving back' give back to the river, spend a day cleaning litter, join a club to help streamside restoration, give something back to the community as we all share the water, no one is better than anyone else so we all have to share it, lets make it better for all! He said it better but its the same message. Sorry i went a bit off topic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JSzymczyk 0 Report post Posted October 16, 2011 The big difference between the older gen and the new is that we (myself included) have the internet to aid us along when before, you learned from your parents or peers or possibly books. Say i want to learn how to roll cast, or mend better, or tie a better BWO, i can find fifty videos on youtube or FTF showing me how. We have access to so much information, but that also means that we (young generation) have no excuse for not being grateful. This post is a little too long! Interesting you bring that up... I've listened to some very compelling discussions about how because it's so easy to access "information" now, that on average as a whole, people KNOW MORE but are actually DUMBER than ever before. Our personal knowledge in general is getting to be a mile wide but an inch deep. I've watched fifty youtube videos about how to operate a nuclear reactor and how to fly a helicopter. Theoretically I KNOW how to do both but I'm not smart enough in those particular fields to DO either of them well. If I've actually went and spent the time to DO those things, along with all the associated logic connections, problem solving, focused experience, etc, in a lot of ways I'd be smarter, not just know more. I guess the bottom line is that people want to DO and KNOW things without any real understanding of HOW and WHY those things happen, like the punk-ass young guides complaining about too many people or people not being what they consider good enough. The good guides don't do it because THEY love to fish (or hunt), they do it because they love for other people to fish. Big big difference. With very rare exceptions, that attitude only comes with a little bit of age. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2bonthewater 0 Report post Posted October 17, 2011 Books......most fly fishers should read anything written by Charles Meck.......the dude knows how to tell a story..... People are people......some good, some bad......some mean, some very kind hearted...... All I know is that you wouldn't find me in a fly shop bitching about my clients and how they can't fish.........welp, isn't that why they hired a guide in the first place........I've had guys who can cast.......guys who certainly flogged the water......and guys who got the job done.......I don't care.........I take them out.......show them the stream.......show them the bugs and flies we'll use.......how the hatch progresses.........that's what you do.......you make an attempt to have fellas learn something and catch some fish....... I just love it when I ask them to try something that they are not used to doing........you kinda get the stink eye..........then, you get the....the fish damn near ripped my arm off !!!! or hey, try this cricket, but you'll have to get it under that bush....really, yes, but under the bush.......after some flogging, the fly manages to get under the bushes....SPALOOSH>...fish on.....just seeing the guys face light up with excitement, the smile......that is why one guides.........does it always work out?? No, but you do your best to make your clients happy....you can't make excuses.........you have chosen to be a guide........even when someone wants to fish flood stage with dry flies.......you do your best.......and when your client does get the strike...you can wipe the sweat off your brow........even if he misses !!! some clients are nice........some are indifferent........some expect way too much.......but, you do your best....... all that being said.......I've been taking people fishing most of my life..........and I've spent many hours learning the hard way, that no matter what, sometimes--you just can't meet expectations........you just can't please everyone........but, if you try hard........smile and put folks on fish.........you are doing OK and never put yourself above your clients.........they took the time to search you out........to hire you............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kirk Dietrich 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 When I was in my teens and twenties(younger), I thought I knew everything; as the years go by and I discover more and more, I realize I'll never know everything even about one thing. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flytyinfreak 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 When I was in my teens and twenties(younger), I thought I knew everything; as the years go by and I discover more and more, I realize I'll never know everything even about one thing. Kirk AMEN Brother! the longer I live The more I realize what is truly important knowledge is. not how to make money or succeed in business on the backs of others but the serious stuff, like how to teach a kid the joys of a good cast and drift. the wonder of a well tyed fly and sharing what I know about this art with others who love it like I do, and even those that don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
H.Champagne 0 Report post Posted October 18, 2011 The whole topic of young vs old will never really be settled, its a good thing in some ways, "the process and not the content" kinda thing, but I know there are young anglers out there who love to fly fish and love to study fly fishing and insects, and streams, and love the feeling of a good grab, and use techniques they see on the internet or in books, that know who John Judy is, and practice until they do understand it, and they use those tools to become better and better, and can look down a river and know how to fish it well. The hard part is that this younger generation was created by the older generation. The story of the guide in the fly shop is messed up, no one should act like that, but there are more young guides out there than you think who love to see other people catch fish. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laxi 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2011 I'm 21 and I've been fishing my family's rivers since I was six years old and I think I'd do a pretty good job if you asked me to guide in that river! Young age doesen't necessarily equal something bad! But I totally see your point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Matt24 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 I'm 21 and I've been fishing my family's rivers since I was six years old and I think I'd do a pretty good job if you asked me to guide in that river! Young age doesen't necessarily equal something bad! But I totally see your point. I agree im only 16 but have been fly fishing since i was 5. Grew up in the lodge business and have heard some guides complain about this and that about people. I think if your the guide then obviously your there because they need your help so mine as well be supportive and help them out that's what your getting paid for that and to make your clients have a great time..... just my thoughts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steeldrifter 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 When I was in my teens and twenties(younger), I thought I knew everything; as the years go by and I discover more and more, I realize I'll never know everything even about one thing. Kirk Kirk I could not have said it better myself, that is 100% the truth. As I will be turning 40 before the end of this year I have come to realize over the past decade that the young know it all guy I use to be who went around with his mouth open and his ears shut has turned into the middle aged guy that listens more than he use too. And the reason for that is because I learned during my 30's that you will NEVER stop learning no matter how old you are or how much you do something. Khoss said back on the first page... Just because you are old, doesn't mean you know better than younger people just because you have been doing something for a long time, doesn't mean you do it well Although that can be true, I would beg to differ that the percentile of that quote will far swing to the side of the older person knowing a bit more in most cases. Because while age does not always=Wisdom, it does=Experience and with Experience (most times)comes Wisdom. And anyone whom does not agree with that most likely are still in the age bracket that thinks they know everything Truth is just because someone is young does not mean that they can't be good at something like being a guide, I'm sure they can. But although they may be good at it that does not mean that they have the experience to do it. Because experience only comes with age. Let me put it this way...IMO a good guide will put you on fish, if that is all you want then sure a young guide can do that for you. BUT an "experienced" guide will put you on fish, know what to do to keep your 9 yr old son happy on the guided trip, or know what to do to keep your wife happy on the trip, know how to cook you a killer shore lunch, can also act as a bit of a tour guide/tell you some history of the river & city where your fishing. In other words an "experienced" guide can provide you with an overall experience that only someone that has been on river dealing with people for years can do. Does that mean the young guide can't be a good guide..no of course not. But some people want a guide with experience that goes years back when they are paying for them. Think of it this way. If you have some near fatal illness and have to go have an on the spot diagnosis and operation and you had your choice....would you want the fresh faced young kid just out of med school that may be book smart but hasn't got much "hands on" experience. Or would you want the doctor that has been there for 30 yrs treating and seeing everything that has come along? Personally I'll take the later, but that's just me Just for the record I have never used a guide, just don't see a need to pay someone to show me to fish unless I have a problem with finding fish myself. But I do have about a half doz friends that guide and they run the age bracket of 20-60 so my opinion is not biased, it's just based on what I have learned about life over the years is all. Personally I welcome all ages to the sport, hell I was a 17 yr old new fly fisher that thought I knew it all at one point as well. We all start somewhere. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyFishin'Jam 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 IMO laxi is a dude, and that's one gorgeous fish, its in the water not flopping on the bank, brilliant pic! Total fish porn! It just makes me yearn. So laxi...if i am ever there we are going fishing! Same for here. Then again, i am a bit ashamed, a while back on here i flamed a dude for illegal guiding...Perhaps its just things like that, litter and bad handling which push our 'buttons'. Oh along with what this topic was about. How about the elitism displayed by some fly anglers these days? Even displayed on this very forum - fly recipe 'secret' I dunno, just go out on the water, clear your mind, and have a great time, no matter what you do or don't catch! I for one welcome all newbs and would like to share any experience i have had, this is a great community, and i am truly humbled ot be a part of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laxi 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 Or would you want the doctor that has been there for 30 yrs treating and seeing everything that has come along? Personally I'll take the later, but that's just me How old was that doctor when he started guiding 30 years ago? Somehow those experienced guides had to start off their guiding carrier But I see that guiding in america is quite different from what it is over here so I'm not gonna comment anymore on something I dont know anything about. But I do know some older and much more experienced fishermen that most of the time catch less fish and smaller fish than me because they are stuck in the same old routine and don't want to try anything new. I also know older and much more experienced fishermen that most of the time catch more fish than me. There are two sides to every story IMO laxi is a dude, and that's one gorgeous fish, its in the water not flopping on the bank, brilliant pic! Total fish porn! It just makes me yearn. So laxi...if i am ever there we are going fishing! Same for here. No problem! I've got my river all by myself the whole summer every summer(and access to many lakes and a few rivers)! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Steeldrifter 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 How old was that doctor when he started guiding 30 years ago? Somehow those experienced guides had to start off their guiding carrier Guiding Doctors? I know what you meant to say . But that really just proves what my point is even more so though. Because what I was saying far as the guides that have been doing it for 30yrs is that back then most guides worked they're way up to being a guide over a period of time by working in the fly shop behind the counter learning things, then moving along a bit more till they had the experience at actually take people out give them a proper guided trip. Today though young guys want to just jump right into being a guide right off the bat. Of the guides I know (even the older ones) not a single one is stuck in his routine or afraid to try anything new, because they make their living off of guiding so they want to provide the best experience to the customer that they can, at least that's how they are here in the USA. I'm not trying to say you don't know what your doing Laxi, I've seen you here for years and you catch some great fish over there. But I do believe that 15 yrs from now you will know even more than you do right now and you'll look back and think "ahhh okay I see what he meant" ...that's just how life goes for all of us as we progress through it and that's my main point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Laxi 0 Report post Posted October 21, 2011 I understand completely waht you older guys are saying, just don't write off the yonger guys completely I'm not trying to say you don't know what your doing Laxi, I've seen you here for years and you catch some great fish over there. But I do believe that 15 yrs from now you will know even more than you do right now and you'll look back and think "ahhh okay I see what he meant" ...that's just how life goes for all of us as we progress through it and that's my main point. I sure hope so, because after fishing my river for about 15 years I know exactly where the fish is but sometimes I have no idea how to get it and just stand there with my rod looking like an idiot! But that's the fun of fishing, learning how to deal with every situation and condition will probably take another 15 years! P.s. You said doctor so I said doctor, Ph.D in fly fishing doesn't sound too bad Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
