fly fishing for Asian Carp?

[Peterjay 0]

I find it difficult to believe that the Asian or Bighead Carp are as big of a threat as claimed. It's a common reaction to each new invasive species. However, nature has a way of balancing itself. If they eat all the plankton then they will starve, other fish will eat their eges and young, numbers will drop, plankton will increase until a balance is reached.

 

There are about 120 species of fish in the Amur River in which the Asian carp has lived for centuraries. How bad can they be? Will they effect the environment into which they are introduced, of course they will. Will they destroy that environment, they haven't in Asia.

 

Remember, the common carp, brown trout, great lakes steelhead, ring neck pheasant and countless plants and insects are all envasive species that impacted their environment, but didn't destroy it. By the way, the Asian carp are currently being exported back to China for consumption at some high end restaurants. Ours are far less polluted and therefore taste better. They consider them a delicacy. One man's trash is .......

 

 

They haven't destroyed their environment in Asia, because they have natural enemies there that limit the population. No such enemies or conditions exist here. Steelhead, brown trout, Great Lakes steelhead, etc., didn't destroy their environments because they were usually filling a niche that had been left vacant by human activities. There's a huge difference between an invasive species and a transplanted species. I'd suggest you do a little homework and find out what that difference is. You're right about one thing though - once they destroy their environment here, they'll starve. The trouble is, by the time they starve, every other species that depends on the environment will be long gone.

[heavynets 0]

"There's a huge difference between an invasive species and a transplanted species. "

 

Yes, the eye of the beholder.

[Peterjay 0]

A transplanted species can become invasive, which by definition, means that the species causes harm to the native ecosystem. (like Asian carp or gypsy moths) But it may also have no environmental impact. (like introduced Great Lakes salmonids or Newfoundland moose) It has absolutely nothing to do with opinion or "the eye of the beholder." We're talking about science, not philosophy.

[heavynets 0]

"It has absolutely nothing to do with opinion or "the eye of the beholder." "

 

Tell that to the guy that's shipping them back to Chinese resturants. LOL

 

I remember when the common carp was considered a destructive invasive species by the "educated" authorities. They too were going to take over all the streams and destroy the habitat for other species. In time a balanced was reached.

[Steeldrifter 0]

Heavynets have you done any reading/viewing/research at all on on the effect that Asian carp have had on watersheds where they have found their way into?? I ask that not to offend you but rather because what we are talking about is not just "speculation" that something bad "might" happen, it is what has happened in every body of water they have found their way into. I'm just finding it hard to believe that anyone that has followed the asian carp issue for the past 5-8 years could not see the devastating effects that they have had where they are found.

[Fly Fishing Russia 0]

If only they made size 44 hooks and microscopic chenille.....

 

 

I'm sorry, I had to. The only way I've heard of catching asian carp is by netting them or using a bowfishing outfit. I know some buffalo and other sucker species are filter feeders (I think) and they can be caught. I may be mistaken too.

 

I have the Asian carps here in their native range, the Amur River. We do not have as many of them here comparing with some US streams... sorry. When these fish are feeding ON the surface, they can eat the dead insects in the surface film. I had caught one - it took me 2-3 hours of casting a small #16 fly from a boat in front of the feeding fish. Finally one of the carps had eaten the fly. The fighting was a big fun! So, I was not using any bait or chum which is not necessary if you could come close to the feeding fish.

[heavynets 0]

Heavynets have you done any reading/viewing/research at all on on the effect that Asian carp have had on watersheds where they have found their way into?? I ask that not to offend you but rather because what we are talking about is not just "speculation" that something bad "might" happen, it is what has happened in every body of water they have found their way into. I'm just finding it hard to believe that anyone that has followed the asian carp issue for the past 5-8 years could not see the devastating effects that they have had where they are found.

 

 

I've heard the hype, but I haven't seen any facts or evidence. You see, I've been around long enough that I have a sixth sence when it come to such things. Sure they are here and I'm sure they will have an effect. However, it smells a lot like human caused "global warming" to me, a lot fear, a lot of speculation, a lot of hype, but little facts. In the case of global warming, a lot of the "facts" were made up to match the speculation. Is that happening now????

 

If this is about science, then let's see the science. Where is the peer reviewed double blind study that documents the decline of a fish species that was directly caused by the introduction of Asian carp into a major river system. They have been in the Missouri River since about 1996, there should be multiple studies showing a decline of sum species by now. SHOW ME THE SCEINCE, not he fear, not he speculation, not the hype.

 

I did find the following from Dr. Dadrowski at Ohio State University: "It is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of evidence," said Dabrowski, who added that the overwhelming weight of the evidence suggests that Asian carp would not build up a big population in Lake Erie.

 

I also found these interesting articles:

 

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/06/07/asian-carp-facing-starvation-and-reproductive-problems/.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2010/09/05/dont-fear-asian-carp-osu-professor-says.html

 

So how much do we REALLY know and how much is hype. Its much like the impending doom that was forecast by the experts concerning the oil spill in the gulf or the global warming hoopla. I suggest we all follow the MONEY and we will get a little closer to the truth.

[FlyFishin'Jam 0]

Kinda with steeldrifter on this one! I guess just what i have heard/ my 2 cents...

 

Being over here in Aus the concern with 'invasive species' is enormous, so when i hear words like 'nature has a way of balancing itself' i think 'no not really'...For example here it is the law to kill common carp, infact any carp you catch you have to kill, they have ruined waterways. Perch were introduced here and have taken over and begun 'stunting'. Should i mention the cane toad, crown of thorns starfish, or didymo? What a great idea that cane toad was!

 

Any Asian carp in the great lakes is bad news, between them and the zebra mussels the zooplankton has no chance to sustain anything.

 

Anyway if they would take a fly? They would probably be a hoot.

[Ruffells311 0]

Haha Just throwing this in there that SnakeHeads should be the most feared IMO. They eat everything living and can survive in harsh conditions.

[Steeldrifter 0]

Heavynets have you done any reading/viewing/research at all on on the effect that Asian carp have had on watersheds where they have found their way into?? I ask that not to offend you but rather because what we are talking about is not just "speculation" that something bad "might" happen, it is what has happened in every body of water they have found their way into. I'm just finding it hard to believe that anyone that has followed the asian carp issue for the past 5-8 years could not see the devastating effects that they have had where they are found.

 

 

I've heard the hype, but I haven't seen any facts or evidence. You see, I've been around long enough that I have a sixth sence when it come to such things. Sure they are here and I'm sure they will have an effect. However, it smells a lot like human caused "global warming" to me, a lot fear, a lot of speculation, a lot of hype, but little facts. In the case of global warming, a lot of the "facts" were made up to match the speculation. Is that happening now????

 

If this is about science, then let's see the science. Where is the peer reviewed double blind study that documents the decline of a fish species that was directly caused by the introduction of Asian carp into a major river system. They have been in the Missouri River since about 1996, there should be multiple studies showing a decline of sum species by now. SHOW ME THE SCEINCE, not he fear, not he speculation, not the hype.

 

I did find the following from Dr. Dadrowski at Ohio State University: "It is not a matter of belief. It is a matter of evidence," said Dabrowski, who added that the overwhelming weight of the evidence suggests that Asian carp would not build up a big population in Lake Erie.

 

I also found these interesting articles:

 

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2009/06/07/asian-carp-facing-starvation-and-reproductive-problems/.

 

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/sports/2010/09/05/dont-fear-asian-carp-osu-professor-says.html

 

So how much do we REALLY know and how much is hype. Its much like the impending doom that was forecast by the experts concerning the oil spill in the gulf or the global warming hoopla. I suggest we all follow the MONEY and we will get a little closer to the truth.

 

 

That's fine...but I have been around long enough as well to know that burying your head in the sand to ignore a problem does nothing but make it even worse. Having lived in and fished the Great Lakes (Born&breed in Michigan) for my entire 40 yrs I am well aware of what the GL can handle and I have seen them hit with many issues over the years from Salmon to BKD to Z.Mussels and Asian carp is by far the worst yet.

 

If you want to say your "sixth sense" tells you that they won't be a problem....that's fine, but personally I choose to go by the FACTS and EVIDENCE that is out there. Take a look at the Illinois river and how devastated and useless that river has become for game fish and tell me that is "hype". The facts and evidence are there....your just choosing not to accept it.

 

As to the links you posted...whomever wrote those article needs to brush up on their fish biology. If Asian carp starve then what does that tell you about the game fish in the same waters? The author of that article says "it only affects the fish that compete with the Asian carp for food"...Okay let's use our heads here. All life in a body of water starts with feeding off plankton. If the plankton crashes (what asian carp feed on) then in a short amount of time once other food sources that rely on plankton are gone, you have a sterile body of water. Kick the main pillar out of the food chain the whole thing collapses.

 

Pretty simple to see unless you simply don't want to see it. Everyone has the right to their own opinion and your entitled to yours, but to simply turn your head and try to tell people it's not anything they should work against simply because you "have a feeling it's gonna be okay"....well sorry but IMO that is a very naive attitude to hold.

[bowfin47 0]

"There's a huge difference between an invasive species and a transplanted species. "

"Yes, the eye of the beholder."

"I've heard the hype, but I haven't seen any facts or evidence. You see, I've been around long enough that I have a sixth sence when it come to such things. Sure they are here and I'm sure they will have an effect. However, it smells a lot like human caused "global warming" to me, a lot fear, a lot of speculation, a lot of hype, but little facts. In the case of global warming, a lot of the "facts" were made up to match the speculation. Is that happening now????"

 

 

 

Invasive/Transplanted Species: Black and Brown Rats (i.e. from early settlement/shipping); Nutria (i.e. brought in by a individual who thought they'd be good to have in south Louisiana); wild pigs (i.e. just ask you local farmers how happy they are with these "new" residents establishing a new equilibrium on their farms/ranches); Starlings (i.e. introduced into NY's Central park by folks who wanted to be able to hear all the birds listed in Shakespeare's plays); Common Salvinia, Giant Salvinia, and Hydrilla (i.e. from the aquarium trade); Didymo (i.e. rock snot); Alligator Weed; Water Hyacinths (i.e. who's seeds were given out at a world's fair), Kudzu and Johnson Grass(i.e. introduced as cattle feed); Chinese tallow and pepper trees (i.e. ornamentals promoted by nurseries); Apple Snails (i.e. Walmart just recently quite selling these to aquarium owners!); Zebra mussels; Boa constrictors - multiple species(i.e. still being sold across the country); walking catfish (i.e. another gift from the aquarium trade); lampreys; snakeheads (i.e. some orientals thought that these would be nice to have locally); Rio Grand Cichlids (i.e. in New Orleans this introduction was traced to two pet stores/tropical fish shops); Lion fish (i.e. thanks again aquarium trade!); multiple Asian AND European carp species (i.e. fish farms sold/sell these to pond owners across the US); gypsy moths; Mediterranean fruit flies, brown widow spiders; Mexican boll weevils, Formosan termites; Asian Prawns (i.e. currently showing up in shrimpers' nets in the Gulf); Australian Spotted Jelly; Asian Tiger Mosquitoes (i.e. came into the Port of Houston in a shipment of used tires imported from Taiwan); red fire ant, big head ant, and crazy ants; and bed bugs (i.e. originality brought in with European settlers, eliminated from the US after WWII, and reintroduced from the middle east into NY in the mid-90's)...

 

Do I need to go on?

 

Eye of the Beholder???

 

Please enlighten me as to which of the above were only bad in the "eye of the beholder"?

 

Yep, "There's a huge difference between an invasive species and a transplanted species."... I wonder if you'll have that same opinion when: your local lake is destroyed by Giant Salvinia (i.e. the lake where I grew up fly fishing is no longer fishable due to Giant Salvinia!), your local river teems with silver carp or is coated with Didymo, or you wake up with bed bugs... 'cuz they're ALL coming to you, real soon...

 

I live in Louisiana where in the last 100 years, we've lost as much land as the entire State of Delaware! One of the factors in this land loss is this the nutria. Yes, nutria have reached an equilibrium... that is to say that after 100 years, they still eat the hell out of marsh grasses thus still contributing to the continued erosion of those same marshes...

 

Oh, and we're so happy down here that so many idiots just keep taking it upon themselves to keep releasing more and more exotic fish, plants, and insects into their ecosystems across the US... so that these species can come down here... Yes, I remember when we were told that the White Amur wouldn't make down here from Missouri, Kentucky, Ohio and other points north in the Mississippi drainage system and that even if they did, these introduced fish would NEVER be able to successfully breed. HA! Gee thanks a lot! Oh, and we really don't care to hear about your triploid fish, now that your fertile White Amur are already here feeding on our marsh vegetation (see above) in vast numbers!

 

http://is.cbr.tulane.edu/

 

It is nice to know that YOU have "sixth sense" about these things. I guess the rest of us can all relax!

 

Bowfin47

 

PS

 

I recently saw a report that it is estimated by some wildlife biologists that within a very few years there will no longer be any large mammals left in the Everglades due to the introduction of Boa Constrictors... starting with elimination of the white tail deer, the wild pigs, the raccoons, opossums, bob cats, and perhaps even all the squirrels and rats (both native and exotic)... Now, won't that be nice a nice equilibrium?

 

PSS

 

I'm no wild-eyed tree hunger... Those who know me well tell have been telling me for over 30 years, that on the political spectrum, that I'm far to the right of Attilla the Hun!

[heavynets 0]

Gees, what a whiner. LOL

 

You conveniently left out all of the plant and animals that have been brought to this country that have not been a problem. Thousands of species of vetables, berries, flowers, trees, birds, insects and animals have been imported or relocated within this country without incidence. When they are a problem they are labeled "invasive". When they are not a problem we say they "found a nitch". Sound like "in the eye of the beholder" to me.

 

The number of Asain carp has been going down for the last 3 years when the article I mentioned above was written. It also mentioned a reduction in plankton and some of the smaller species that feed on plankton. Sounds like it's coming into balance to me.

 

If those Asian carp took a fly too, no one would be complaining. First we would rename them. Then we would be noting how big they get, fight so well, jump so high and just taste delicious. And to top it all off they help reduce the zebra mussel because they compete for the same plankton. The perfect fish, if they just took a fly.

 

What little I know about your land loss down there is that it is not because of the nutria. By far the major culprit is from the worst invasive species of all time ....man!

What should we do about that invasive species? LOL. That's the one you should be worried about.

[Steeldrifter 0]

The asian carp debate has absolutely nothing to do with them not taking a fly because that still does nothing to address the sheer amount of microscopic organisms they take out of the waters they live in. That right there shows me you truly have no idea what these fish are actually all about. Sorry heavynets but I think you are all alone in your thinking on this one.

 

Also I would be interested in hearing where you get your information from about asian carp numbers declining. Because living in the Great Lakes I try to stay very up to date on the carp issue and everything I have seen shows that the numbers have only grown and not declined.

[JSzymczyk 0]

I can not see any possible GOOD thing about these dam' Asian carp.

 

BUT- having grown up on the great lakes in the 80s, I well remember how there was just as much "ecosystem apocalypse" associated with the zebra mussels, spiny water fleas, and then gobies. Those were all going to be End-of-the-World invasives at various times.

 

If I had the ability, I'd kill off every asian carp in the USA along with the other invasive crap which people have introduced. All I can do is hope they don't have as grave an effect as we fear--- the 100-pound heads have got it partially wrong on several previous occasions. From what I've seen and read, it's only a matter of time before they get into the Great Lakes, WHEN not IF.

[Steeldrifter 0]

BUT- having grown up on the great lakes in the 80s, I well remember how there was just as much "ecosystem apocalypse" associated with the zebra mussels, spiny water fleas, and then gobies. Those were all going to be End-of-the-World invasives at various times.

 

I never saw the potential problems with the Gobies so that wasn't really one I thought posed too much of a threat, but zebra mussels actually have had a big impact on many of our rivers and lakes here in Michigan. There are some places where the bottom is just covered with them. Since this is a A.carp discussion I won;t sidetrack it onto something else. But Z.Mussels actually have had a big impact on many of our rivers/lakes here in Michigan in a negative way.

 

Steve