Salmon fly question's

[Fish For Life 0]

Why are salmon flys so fancy? Ive been looking at more and more lately and cant get over how detailed and flashy they are. What are they trying to represent/resemble?? Why are these detailed flys not used for other fish than salmon? Do they need to be so detailed, does it affect to overall result while fishing? Would a simple streamer work for salmon or is it best to use these crazy flys? Why are salmon flys always tyed on those special/different hooks, do the flys have to be tyed on these hooks? As im sure you can tell im a salmon fly virgin, so any help with these flys is appreciated.

 

Thanks

[Crackaig 0]

The original name for "full dressed" salmon flies was "Fancy Flies" No they don't need to be that detailed. Look at modern salmon flies and you will see they are not as complicated. The hooks are the way they are for various reasons. The eye is turned up so the fly can be tied on with a turle knot, that tightens around the shank behind the eye. The traditional black colour, I believe, came about as the best rust proofing available was japanning. There are various designs of bend and point for strength and hooking ability.

 

One thing to remember is that in fresh water salmon do not feed. Some people believe that if you put your fly in front of a salmon it will either take or it wont. What makes a salmon take is a mystery. Lots of guesses, but little solid fact.

 

The movement of materials has become a consideration in recent times. That has meant a preference for softer materials like Arctic Fox Tail etc. Also it has resulted in the development of Intruder style flies. Though movement of materials goes back a long way with Spey and Dee flies that use long flowing (originally) heron hackles.

 

Most of the fancy tying for salmon is done for the art of it, and to catch anglers. Certainly here in the UK, if you look at what anglers use the most common fly is the Ally's Shrimp. Therefore, it catches most fish! I suspect a lot of salt water patterns would be good for salmon, but salmon anglers tend to, shall we say a conservative lot. You will not get them trying.

 

Cheers,

C.

[mikechell 0]

"Ron Lucas Sr. and friends ... How to Dress Salmon Flies" on the "FlyAnglersOnline" website have a pretty good explaination, whether it's true or not, I didn't research any further.

Basically, in the infancy of sport fishing in England and Scotland, it was believed that Salmon ate butterflies. At the same time, exotic species feathers were flowing in from around the world. Also, fly fishing was a "gentleman's sport" and fly tiers were eager to prove skill to their superiors.

All of this concentrates into the classic salmon fly. Attempts to make ever prettier butterfly imitations and to outdo others trying the same thing led to extravagant patterns that still hold a place in the artwork of fly tying.

[s fontinalis 0]

It amazes me how salmon fly tyers are so pigeon holed by those who've either never read a classic book about salmon fishing/fly tying, or never tried to tie a classic fly

 

 

The original name for "full dressed" salmon flies was "Fancy Flies" No they don't need to be that detailed. Look at modern salmon flies and you will see they are not as complicated. The hooks are the way they are for various reasons. The eye is turned up so the fly can be tied on with a turle knot, that tightens around the shank behind the eye. The traditional black colour, I believe, came about as the best rust proofing available was japanning. There are various designs of bend and point for strength and hooking ability.

 

One thing to remember is that in fresh water salmon do not feed. Some people believe that if you put your fly in front of a salmon it will either take or it wont. What makes a salmon take is a mystery. Lots of guesses, but little solid fact.

 

The movement of materials has become a consideration in recent times. That has meant a preference for softer materials like Arctic Fox Tail etc. Also it has resulted in the development of Intruder style flies. Though movement of materials goes back a long way with Spey and Dee flies that use long flowing (originally) heron hackles.

 

Most of the fancy tying for salmon is done for the art of it, and to catch anglers. Certainly here in the UK, if you look at what anglers use the most common fly is the Ally's Shrimp. Therefore, it catches most fish! I suspect a lot of salt water patterns would be good for salmon, but salmon anglers tend to, shall we say a conservative lot. You will not get them trying.

 

Cheers,

C.

The correct term is Gaudy Flies (dates back as far as William Blacker (1842 or 43), if not further. Fancy flies might have been used in later times.

Vintage hooks had no eyes, i.e. Blind eye hooks. The advent of the eye came in the late 19th/early 20th centuries, and even then were not thought to be of good quality. The majority of quality hooks came from irish makers, hence names like limerick, OShaunessey etc.

Your theory for up eyes may be true for modern flies, but not the Victorian Salmon flies from Kelson, Francis, Tolfrey, Blacker etc

 

you'll find that there are a lot of salmon anglers in the UK (and scandanavia) who fish modern as well as classic patterns particularly the classic tyers. Some may be conservative, but to generalize all in that bracket is a gross overstatement.

A fair amount of the salmon flies tied are for artistic purposes, yes, but consider this. Would you fish with a fly containing perhaps 50 quid worth of feathers, and risk losing it? I think not.

Its easy to tie classic patterns with modern substitutes for fishing and not be out a fortune. A Green Highlander can be tied with feathers all sourced from your local online retailer of fly shop without have to break the bank.

 

"Ron Lucas Sr. and friends ... How to Dress Salmon Flies" on the "FlyAnglersOnline" website have a pretty good explaination, whether it's true or not, I didn't research any further.

Basically, in the infancy of sport fishing in England and Scotland, it was believed that Salmon ate butterflies. At the same time, exotic species feathers were flowing in from around the world. Also, fly fishing was a "gentleman's sport" and fly tiers were eager to prove skill to their superiors.

All of this concentrates into the classic salmon fly. Attempts to make ever prettier butterfly imitations and to outdo others trying the same thing led to extravagant patterns that still hold a place in the artwork of fly tying.

 

True about butterflies, but not so much about proving to their superiors. Often, those who could afford to fish salmon rivers were the well off, who paid ghillies. The ghillies had the flies, Kelson et al. recorded the flies that worked well and on what rivers.

If you look at the pattern listings in kelson (its free online) you'll see in the upper right of the pattern either initials of the originator of the fly, or GS, for general standard. Sure, he and others modified the flies they tied, but for the most part others developed them.

Traherne was perhaps the most extravagant of the prominent dressers and salmon fishermen at the time. A lot of his flies used huge macaw coverts for the wings, as well as other feathers while Pryce-Tannatt bastardized a lot of patterns to dress them up, case in point being the Green Highlander from Kelson (1895) vs Pryce Tannatt (1914) - look them up online, and tell me which is more complicated and 'fancy'

[ryveradair 0]

Wow, you seem to be an expert^

[s fontinalis 0]

Not an expert, but I've tied a few flies and read a few books

[JSzymczyk 0]

The way I read it is: if you could (or can) afford to fish for atlantic salmon in Britain or Canada, you don't need to worry about how much the flies cost, or why they are so gaudy.

[s fontinalis 0]

Not if you live there

The way I read it is: if you could (or can) afford to fish for atlantic salmon in Britain or Canada, you don't need to worry about how much the flies cost, or why they are so gaudy.

 

Seriously? Could definitely applies, but can? Anyone can do anything, IF THEY WANT TO. less than $20 can buy you materials to tie 50 green highlanders, or any other classic fly you want fish with, using subs for expensive or rare materials. If $20 is an obstacle then it's time to reevaluate a lot of things.

 

[mikechell 0]

Not if you live there

The way I read it is: if you could (or can) afford to fish for atlantic salmon in Britain or Canada, you don't need to worry about how much the flies cost, or why they are so gaudy.

Seriously? Could definitely applies, but can? Anyone can do anything, IF THEY WANT TO. less than $20 can buy you materials to tie 50 green highlanders, or any other classic fly you want fish with, using subs for expensive or rare materials. If $20 is an obstacle then it's time to reevaluate a lot of things.

Argumentative little sh aren't you?

[s fontinalis 0]

I'm merely trying to dispel the myth that salmon flies are expensive to tie. They can be, but they don't have to be.

I know this because I've tied them both cheaply and expensively.

[JSzymczyk 0]

you misunderstood my intent - easy enough to do, my wife does it all the time... My comment attempted to say that atlantic salmon FISHING in general is expensive and people who can afford it wouldn't worry how much a fly costs.

 

Both of the Atlantic Salmon I have hooked, one landed, one lost, were on black and olive woolly buggers- can't get much cheaper than that- I was NOT fishing for them, they were stray fish in a river in New Brunswick, which was connected to the sea. We were fishing for bass- which the locals considered a trash fish in those waters at that time.

 

My understanding is, in Europe especially, if you have to wonder how much it costs to fish, you can't afford it, so why would one even think about if a fly cost a little or a lot?

 

I have nothing against any type of fly tying in any of its ways, shapes, or forms. Tie what you want, however you want, and have fun with it. Full Dress salmon flies are one of the pinnacles of the art form. I would think that one fish on a full dress fly with married wings of 20 different feathers and four hours... or four days... of work put into it, would pretty much ruin the fly, but make it fish better.

[Si_ 0]

you misunderstood my intent - easy enough to do, my wife does it all the time... My comment attempted to say that atlantic salmon FISHING in general is expensive and people who can afford it wouldn't worry how much a fly costs.

 

Both of the Atlantic Salmon I have hooked, one landed, one lost, were on black and olive woolly buggers- can't get much cheaper than that- I was NOT fishing for them, they were stray fish in a river in New Brunswick, which was connected to the sea. We were fishing for bass- which the locals considered a trash fish in those waters at that time.

 

My understanding is, in Europe especially, if you have to wonder how much it costs to fish, you can't afford it, so why would one even think about if a fly cost a little or a lot?

 

I have nothing against any type of fly tying in any of its ways, shapes, or forms. Tie what you want, however you want, and have fun with it. Full Dress salmon flies are one of the pinnacles of the art form. I would think that one fish on a full dress fly with married wings of 20 different feathers and four hours... or four days... of work put into it, would pretty much ruin the fly, but make it fish better.

JSzymczyk, your understanding is a wee bit flawed. In Scotland probably the majority of salmon fishing takes place by members of local clubs, many of which can be joined for an annual fee of less than £100. A good proportion of members use lower end rods, reels etc. and most certainly have to consider the cost of their consumables. Of course there are beats on the major rivers costing many thousands per week and those that fish them are in the "if you have to ask....." brigade. I think the argument may be a bit of a moot point however as I doubt there are more than a handful of fishers using the type of flies being discussed here. As Crackaig says, we are all using bucktail patterns. To spend days tying a fly which might get lost on the first cast is a bit eccentric even if you are a millionaire! Those flies are tied now to show off tying skills and for presentation cases.

[FlyFishin'Jam 0]

Yeah JSzymczyk, its cheap bro! St Mary's rapids up at the Soo is free for me with my license, and here is what my buddy from the East Coast says...

 

'The waters of Nova Scotia are the last free area in the world to angle for wild Atlantics in the native range. A 150$ license get you access to all waters of the Provence without limitations of any kind. No private water, no"no trespassing" , no guides required and no additional fees. Fall Atlantics are found in 5 major rivers in my area of Cape Breton... Margaree, baddeck , North Cheticamp and the Middle. Wild Salmon in October are found from just above the tidal flows up to skinny waters of the mountain creeks. These areas are great places to start if you like a low budget do it yourself highly rewarding hunt for wild born Atlantics on the east coast. I'm not selling anything... I just love these rivers and their anadromous swimmers.... Peace....✌'

 

 

Anyway....

 

I would not say salmon fishing is expensive here, one of my patterns uses 1 strung saddle feather which would yield 5 or more flies, silver tinsel, and guinea fowl wing quills which are basically free as the only guinea people seem to want is body feather. So including hook that is a pretty cheap ass fly. Think of a traditional like a copper killer, rat series, hairy mary, or even blue charm...They are cheap but if you lack tying skills they will just look crap.

 

Basically, do what you like...stay simple or elevate your tying to new heights by testing your skills. Whatever you enjoy on the water, and beware....tying these beautiful patterns and fishing them is highly addictive.

[starsky 0]

Fully dressed salmon flies are not fished much these days! Most are put in picture frames. It is a dying art though. To think in the old days it was done without a vise! Most traditional fly tying methods have made way to easier techniques. Most flies for fishing have hair wings basically cause they are a lot easier to tie. This goes for trout flies as well. But even though its a difficult technique, flies with feathered wings are to my eye nicer but the salmon does not know that! Even the great fly tiers I've seen and asked tell me they fish mostly hair wings. Point to note! I live in Scotland, salmon here can be expensive on some beats/rivers. But just remember this most salmon get caught on spinners! Flying C's spoons and devon minnow lures! Most beats ban these methods to stop more fish getting caught! FACT! Which I don't mind cause I don't fish them much and I only fish fly, and the less salmon that get caught the better then maybe the stocks will get back to what they once were! So no I don't think an amazing looking fly with 25 different feathers in it is needed to catch a fish. Rant over lol great point.

[s fontinalis 0]

Tying in hand is a lot easier than it sounds. I've tied 1/0 salmon flies rangeley style streamers on 8xl hooks, winged wet flies and even size 10 quill wing dry flies. Obviously the Moyer you do it the better you become. Good wax will greatly aid your experience...