Tying Lessons

[Guest]

I have always given beginners tying instruction for free. Much of what I learned when I started was given to me gratis and I think it’s only fair that I return the favor.

 

Now however, I’m being asked to teach people to tie salmon flies and I don’t think I should be giving this knowledge away for free. Several people who have asked me to teach them were offended that I would even suggest that they should pay for it. It has caused some friction here and an icy reception at the last fly club meeting I attended.

 

Am I wrong? It’s not like I’m asking a lot of money for this either, $10 an hour and I supply all materials and beer. Too much? Too little? I’m a little confused by all of this controversy.

 

I respect everyone’s opinion here on FTF, let me know what you think?

 

[vices 0]

Troutbum, I have tied a few salmon flys and if your selling lessons for 10$.... I'm bring the beer (your choice) my own materials, sounds like a great deal to me. Course i dont know how well you know these guys... If your ever in the area I'd hire ya..

[Al Beatty 0]

Hi Troutbum,

 

This certainly can be a touchy subject. Lefty Kreh once advised me to, "Never give away what you can sell." My problem has always been defining what to sell and what to give away and I'm in the business! For me the most difficult time in my fly-fishing carear was that point when I had to slow down the demands on my time by charging for that time. I'm not here to advise on whether to charge for instruction or not, that's something you have to decide for yourself. However, I think that $10.00 per hour is not enough to charge. I base my charges on how much I can make working. As a self employed person the money stops as soon as I stop producing. When I do donate time to a local club/organization I keep track of the time I donate and credit it against my taxes just like I would if I write a check to TU or FFF to support conservation, etc. I don't know if my rambling answer has helped or not. Anyway good luck with whatever way you make your decision. Take care & ...

 

Tight Lines - Al Beatty

www.btsflyfishing.com

[Carlin 0]

Everybody wants something for free, and if these are folks who are aware that you've done other lessons and not charged, you're going to have troubles.

 

Figuring something like guitar lessons are at least $10/hr. and you wouldn't go away with nearly as much immediately useable knowledge, I think it's totally fair. I have been tying for quite a while and can't tie even a halfway decent salmon fly. Besides, what would these crybabies pay for a good salmon fly tying how-to book?

 

However TB, I'll warn you, if I was your student, that $10 wouldn't cover an hour's worth of beer.

[Dble Haul 0]

I agree with Al in that you're not charging enough.

 

I've always held winter tying sessions in my home where my buddies and I would compare notes about what worked particularly well over the past season, and then tie them. But when I started to help teach classes at the shop that I was already tying for, I felt compelled to charge for my time. That's time I could be spending doing other things.

 

It's pretty ridiculous for anyone to get mad at you over such things. If they had any idea how much the materials alone for salmon flies can cost, they'd realize that you're providing them with a deal.

[Guest]

Ready, Set- GO!!!

 

Troutbum, every word of what Al says is chiseled in stone, so to speak, even the part about it being a slippery slope when it comes to involvement with ‘friends’ and ‘club members’- it incorporates a level of politics that didn’t exist before someone’s feathers were ruffled. It’s kinda like doing business with or lending money to family and friends- it ain’t smart business in all cases.

 

I don't know Al; I do know Lefty.

 

Al and Lefty both have given of their time and expertise to an organization I belong to and instruct for. United Fly Tyers (the original), located here in Massachusetts, organized itself in 1959. The current registration of the club is some 700+ members; not all members attend monthly meetings, but do maintain their annual memberships.

 

During that forty-plus years, many notables in the fly 'industry' - some of whom are current members, have passed through the portals of a meeting to speak or instruct or have provided their time and energies to construct items to be raffled to help support the club's furtherance of the 'art' of fly tying. It is almost a certainty that whenever Al or Lefty have donated auction items their contributions have been documented and entered in the charitable donations sections of their IRS returns.

 

UFT sends out a newsletter to members identifying the patterns to be demonstrated each month. This is pretty self-explanatory: you read the newsletter, you look at the patterns listed and decide which one you’ll sit and learn – it has to be pretty innovative each and every month to satisfy members’ curiosities.

 

While our group is benevolent in scope, we do not always “give” away what we offer as instruction. If a particularly complex pattern is being demonstrated, the instructor may OFFER to (a) bring the materials for the pattern and give them away at tying time or ( b ) provide materials, for a fee, to complete the pattern (and rightly so;) it is generally understood that anyone who CHOOSES TO actively ‘learn by doing’ (that pattern) is expected to agree to those terms, as the instructor is shelling out of his own pocket. Otherwise, if they want to sit and do that pattern, they’ll provide their own materials beforehand. This is all noted in the particular instructor’s comments in the newsletter.

 

Members and non-members also pay at the door to “get in”- this covers the hall rental, costs of speakers, etc.

 

Your time, materials, expertise and patience is certainly worth a ten-spot each from anybody who is seriously interested enough in your teaching skills, and they ought not be offended by your saying it is so. And, if this idea rubs them the wrong way because they’re cheapskates and think they’re ENTITLED to it by birthright or membership or whatever,

 

Maybe it’s time to structure the organization more clearly so there aren’t misunderstandings or expectations or hackles getting rubbed “the wrong way.”

 

You don’t deserve to be put in a defensive position because of the costs associated with learning. You're not giving away beginner instruction at this point.

 

[Ming- did I forget anything???] P.S. - you're more fuel for the fire- Thanks!

[Guest]

Paul,

 

If your supplying the material and beer you are defiently cutting yourself short. If these guys really wanted to learn they would be more than willing to shell out a few bucks to make it worth your time. I know you have probably spent ALOT of money to get to the point where you are today and with your instruction that might lessen the learning curve for these guys which will save them money in the long run. I have been pricing some materials because I will like to try some out this winter and even at my prices some of that stuff is outrageous.

[Dble Haul 0]

Dave, that's an outstanding summation of just what it takes to make these things happen sometimes. I don't belong to any flyting clubs, but at a shop it's essentially the same thing: not coming out in the red for sharing some time and materials.

 

Again, I share my dismay at people giving Paul grief over this. They apparently don't know what's involved.

[Frank G. Swarner III 0]

I would charge at least $20, especially since you are providing materials. There are alot of books that can help people start out, but as you know, the books don't share all the tips or tricks. I presume you would share some these tips/tricks with the class. If so, that information is very valuable, and quite frankly I think it is priceless.

 

Chip

[vices 0]

Well said everyone... specially D-fix, Trout I dont know how much the beer down in florida is.. but if i were teachin a lesson and supplying the beer i would have to charge 10$ just to cover their drinks.. anyways I totaly agree with everyone else, you should charge more. Don't feel bad doing so, theres a good reason nothing is for free....

[graycoughlin 0]

Troutbum,

I'm with everyone else. $10.00 doesn't seem like much. I mean does it even cover the beer? My guess is that once everyone gets used to it the chill you're experiencing will go away.

graycoughlin

[ggmiller 0]

Troutbum:

 

I must agree with what the others have said - You're not charging enough!

 

You should charge at least 20.00 (likely more - those salmon fly materials are expensive!) and make them provide their own drink.

 

I must commend you for offering - for free - beginning classes/instructions! It's a great way to give back and help a newbie out. But you are now offering a more, premium service and should be compensated for it.

 

I'm a network administrator/computer repair person and I'l help friends and co-workers out a bit for free. I learned a lot from a guy when I was starting out and he didn't charege me. But, as I had more experience and more technical situations come up, I offered to pay him as it was all mostly in the evening and I took him away from his family. When I mention to folks requesting help with a computer infected with a virus, adware, etc. that I know will take a lot longer than just showing them how to create a shortcut; that I will charge for it they, too seemed put off that I'd charge them. Hey, let them take it into a repair shop and see how much they will pay then.

 

There are always those who try to get everything and anything for free, if they are insulted by it, oh well.

 

If I were into salmon fishing I would gladly pay to learn how to tie those flies.

 

Don't be offended by those folks, just be firm about charging for the classes.

 

Good luck,

 

George

 

[Guest]

i would expect to have to pay for lessons to tie thjose fancy Atlantic salmon flies. I'll probably won't end up doing that, though, because I'm not sure i have enough patience to tie those things (I think I use up most of my patience teaching freshman chemistry...). For something advanced as this, I'd expect to have to pay something.

 

Mark Delaney

[Guest]

I was getting 10 bucks a hour 20 years ago and that was to teach people to tie trout flies, and I didn't even supply beer.

 

Your selling your knodlege for cheep TB.

 

OSD.

[Marty 0]

$10 an hour, you supply the beer?

 

Your right its bad enough giving it away but if you were teachin me on a deal like that you would be goin in the hole!

 

Been there, done that, got the T-Shirt. Not with tying but I am a bit of a computer geek and everyone gets a little set back when we get to the point of having to pay for something that goes "above and beyond".

 

Stick with it they will get used to it. One thing I have learned is a customer never appreciates it unless they pay for it.