Epoxy, extending pot life

[Kirk Dietrich 0]

To extend the pot life of your 2-Ton, 30 minute cure epoxy, float your "pot" with the epoxy mixture in a bowl or larger cup of ice water - you'll get four times the working time.

Over the years, I've come to realize that I can only epoxy top coat 6 medium to large popper heads or equiv. with a batch of epoxy.

Then, kind of recently, I went to thinning the epoxy with 70% Iso Alcohol and found I could get a dozen done before the mixture went south. However, I came across a bunch of information and even testing that was done on thinning epoxy and the tests show that while it increases pot life and increases viscosity, it weakens the epoxy.

Not having used this method for very long and not being a scientist, I cannot vouch for the effects of chemically thinned epoxy on fishing lures but looking at those test results is enough for me abandon thinning epoxy with alcohol. Hard to argue with science.

Now, for the cooled down epoxy. Talking to a guy that builds boats, I learned that he extends the working time of his marine epoxy by floating his pot of mixed epoxy in a bowl of ice water. I tried it by floating my plastic "bathroom" sized cup with a batch of mixed epoxy in a cup of ice water. I was able to coat 23 popper heads with the batch before I used up my mixture - basically, I used up my mixture before it got to stiff to apply. Speaking of stiff, cooling the epoxy will make it thick as molasses, however, once you smear a dab on to your bug and start spreading it with your plastic craft brush, it returns to its normal viscosity real quick.

Just thought I'd pass that on.

 

Kirk

[oatka 0]

I've got some 5 minute epoxy that I'm going to try this with.

 

Thanks for the tip! This will be very useful!

[Henry Franklin 0]

Thanks for the Info. Kirk, I will

be using the ice for sure.

 

Henry F.

[Johny Utah 0]

Additional tip, Float a couple cold ones in there as well......

[lykos33 0]

Dang Kirk, you da bomb! (and Johny Utah is pretty bright too!)

[bowfin47 0]

Kirk,

 

Where are ya' buying your 30 min. epoxy? I've having trouble finding any here in B.R.

 

Kyle

[Stippled Popper 0]

Kirk,

 

Where are ya' buying your 30 min. epoxy? I've having trouble finding any here in B.R.

 

Kyle

 

Kyle,

 

Have you tried the Ace Hardware Store on Highland Road or the Hardware Store just East of Siegen on Perkins Road?

[tidewaterfly 0]

Kirk, great information! Joe Branham told me many years ago that mixed epoxy could be placed in a refrigerator to extend working time, but I never thought of using ice water.

 

As far as thinning with alcohol, I think it's relative to what you're using the epoxy for, regardless of what the scientists have to say. I've never had any problems with doing it. If I was building boats, then could see that strength is of the utmost importance, but for coating popper bodies, I doubt you could measure the difference in the strength of the thinned epoxy. I would bet that even thinned epoxy is much stronger than Sally Hansen's, which I've also used with good results and many others do also, so am not concerned either way.

[perchjerker 0]

Kirk:

 

I totally agree with tidewaterfly's comments. I will have to give the 'icewater bath' a try though.

 

perchjerker

[Kirk Dietrich 0]

Johnny Utah, that is probably the best tip yet; I'll have to start using a larger ice bucket!

 

Tide and Perch, you're probably right about the strength relativeness with thinning with one of the volatile thinners, especially as a protective coating it may not matter. However, my interest when I first began using the alcohol was in extending the pot life, which it did and is backed up by what the tests on the pages I read shows. It works great for that but it still gets to thick for spreading before I use up a "batch".

After reading some rod building forums' posts about thinning thread wrap top coatings, it is mainly to provide better penetration in to the thread wraps and even then, many of the guys advise against not thinning with volatile thinners.

 

When coating bugs and flies, I'm not looking for penetration but a good coating and time to coat them. When floating the epoxy pot in icewater, it gives me enough working time that with my normal mixture, I can coat a little over a dozen bugs and the last bug coated when the batch runs out is just as lucid as the first one.

If you mix a whole bunch of epoxy in a batch, yes, it will start to set as I found out when I doubled my normal batch. I was able to get 23 bugs coated and even though it began to set on the 22nd bug, I was able to use the entire double batch of mixed epoxy.

 

Kirk

[Flytyer14 0]

This should be Pinned. Would help lot's of people out i'm sure.

[Harold Ray 0]

When I add alcohol to my epoxy, I don't add a lot. Usually I mix 1.5 to 2 cc.s of epoxy and the same of hardener plus a half cc. of alcohol. It does seem to help with lengthening the workable time for the mixture. I will be using the chilled method the next time I mix. I've got 20+ large poppers to do plus 20 more ready to paint, so I'll be trying this soon. I'm starting early for the Southern FFF Conclave in Mountain Home, Arkansas in early October. I want to have 200 to 300 poppers along with Thunder Creek Streamers and a deep running streamer I do ready and waiting when I get there.

 

The poppers I have epoxied with a small amount of alcohol included appear great to me; beautiful coat and lots of compliments at the Sowbug Round-Up at Mountain Home in March when I first showed them.

 

Kirk, how much epoxy do you mix at a time to do 20 plus poppers?

 

I buy my Devcon 2 Ton epoxy at online craft stores: Devcon 30-Minute Epoxy, 9 oz.

 

Ray

[Kirk Dietrich 0]

Harold, see the link to my video I made on epoxying poppers. Unfortunately, I don't have measurements as I use the 9 oz. bottles and empty them into hand soap dispensers. For the 23 bugs I did, I used two "squirts" of each hardner and resin. For the video, I just used one squirt of each. I cut and clipped the video to spare everyone the boredom; the first few, the epoxy is still lucid enough to pick up with the plastic bristled brush. However, after a few, it does thicken to where I have to use the stirring stick to pick up a blob of the epoxy as I think you will see briefly when I coat the mylar popper. Once on the bug, it warms quick enough to become thin enough to brush on to finish coating the bug. Just be sure to spread it on and pick up any excess with the brush and either deposit it back in your pot or onto the next bug. I didn't really do the video with emphasizing the use of chilled epoxy, so, you may or may not pick up much from it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/KirkDiet?feature=mhee#p/a/u/0/Jxz8yplFs7c

 

Man, 2 - 300 poppers! You sure are ambitious!

 

Kirk

[perchjerker 0]

Ray:

 

I use a 1:1:1 mix ratio with great success, and have been using it for 30 years now. I use plastic syringes to accurately measure all three components. I find that a total volume of mixed epoxy of 3cc to be about right for doing a batch. The total amount to mix up you need to determine for yourself, based on how fast you can adequately coat your bugs. Trial and error is the rule of the day!

 

Kirk:

 

Very nice video! Thanks!!

 

I thin to get reduced viscosity to enable me to coat more bugs per unit time; rather than to extend pot life. The thinner it is, the faster it goes on. With respect to your comments about thinning it for coating rod wraps, I have not seen any comments about avoiding volatile thinners, and I have read extensively about the use of thinned epoxies in the rod building literature, with special preference to the making of bamboo rods.

 

There is, however, a very significant reason why they recommend NOT using volatile (a 'relative' term with no 'standard') thinners, and is why I recommend alcohol. The faster the solvent evaporates, the faster the stuff 'sets up' and the shorter the pot life. Acetone is much more volatile at STP (Standard Temperature and Pressure) than alcohol. Thus, alcohol would be the more desirable, and less volatile, solvent for their application, as well as ours.

 

The chemical reaction that occurs as epoxies cure is an exothermic one; that is, it generates heat. The warmer it gets, the faster the reaction occurs. Cooling the stuff down greatly reduces the rate of reaction, thus reducing the rate at which internal heat is generated, thus reducing the rate at which it cures, thus extending pot life.

 

Just a couple of comments on your video. It definitely appears as if you are using un-thinned epoxy to coat things with, based on the apparent viscosity of what you were using. A comment clarifying this would be apropos, IMHO. It is understandable why you have trouble using a batch up before it sets, based on the speed with which you apply the stuff. One quick, nice and uniform coat should do it, and move on to the next one. You appeared to belabor application of the stuff.

 

These observations are made constructively! You have done all a service by doing the video. GREAT JOB!

 

aged_sage

[Kirk Dietrich 0]

Perch, thanks for the comment on the video.

 

Volatile is relative and I actually was looking for a single term to capture Lacquer Thinner, Acetone, as well as Alcohol; I realize Alcohol isn't as volatile as the former but I was trying to shorten my post.

Anyway, I don't remember the exact forum I read the info on but I did a search and came up with two discussions on the topic and there are both pro and con comments on the use of thinning. That forum, that I can't find now, referenced the following write up by West Epoxy System Epoxy:

http://www.seqair.com/skunkworks/Glues/WestSystem/Thinning/Thinning.html

 

Two of the many forums that I found the discussions on thinning epoxy or flex coat with pros and cons for integrity and for penetrating rod wraps are here:

http://www.rodbuildingforum.com/index.php?showtopic=18564

http://rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,226731

 

I remember us having a discussion about thinning extending the pot life and neither of us had actually timed it and just came to the conclusion that the extended pot life could be an illusion based on being able to paint quicker. However, all the forum discussions I read stated a noticeable extended pot life as did the West Epoxy System write up. But, after using both the thinning and chilling techniques, I personally prefer chilling it. Many here may not, it is certainly a personal preferance.

 

 

I welcome constructive criticism. On a flat surface or one without obstructions, you may be able to apply a quick coat, which could be said of the spoons if they had no elements attached. With the flies in the video, they are finished flies and as such have elements to avoid getting epoxy on to, which my mind sees no other way to accomplish than with a belabored approach.

Both the spoon and the mylar popper in the video have weedguards attached, yet, there are thread wraps that I try to cover and coat without bleeding epoxy onto the hook shank and/or tail materials. I'm also turning the bug while coating it to get the light reflection to ensure I don't leave any dry spots, which I'd rather take extra time to cover when first coating than to try and fix later.

 

Then there is always the "my eyes aren't what they used to be" and I really should put on the jeweler's magnifiers so I can see better and not have to double check and go back over areas that are likely covered already.

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

Kirk