Hackle Sizing for Wide Gape Hooks

[TableGrouch 0]

First order of business, I'm new to the forum as evidenced by my "Bait Fisherman" member title. I hope that no one is "gut hooked" and harmed by this post.

 

Second order; I'm obsessing over hackle sizing today and need some perspective. I've started to tie more small flies on wide gape hooks (with the belief that bite on the hook set is improved). I've always adhered to the rule of thumb that hackle for a dry should be 1.5X the hook gape. My understanding of the logic behind this is that a properly proportioned Catskill style dry will float at three points of contact; tip of hackle, bottom on hook bend and tip of tail. So it follows that if I'm tying on a wide gape dry fly hook I should throw away the sizing gauge and eyeball the hackle if I want it to float properly? (This seems to create some implications for matching the hatch as I've essentially tied a larger fly on a smaller hook).

 

Here's the real question. I fish a lot of parachute style dries and spent wing patterns, but don't bother much with the Catskills. I don't think I should really care much about the hackle size. The fly is floating flush to the plane of the water so the hackle dimensions relative to hook gape don't seem to have any (as much) relevance to flotation. Real issue is that the fly simply appear to be properly proportioned to the real insect.

 

Thoughts and comments on the matter? Thanks.

[vicrider 0]

One comment. The only way a Catskill fly floats on the 3 points you mention is if it's laid carefully on a wet piece of glass for the picture. Otherwise, any fly is going to end up laying flat on the surface, if not on the first cast, any after that. The leader alone will pull them down flat to the surface.

 

I agree with your thinking on the parachute that hackle size is not as important for proportions as a Catcskill tied for display purposes. Lots of Catskill tied flied that were not well measured for accuracy have a caught a lot of fish, and for parachutes I've never seen a sizing chart for them. I know I generally use a size larger hackle to hook size for parachutes than other dries.

[Gene L 0]

I'd use a hackle guage. I think the extra weight of a wide gap hook is probably going to sink the fly anyway, but I don't know this. Just figuring.

[bellevue.chartreuse.trout 0]

If all other dimensions of the hook are the same with the exception of the hook gap - (just my opinion) I'd keep proportions and sizing of materials based on what the usual hook gap 'normally' is on a standard hook - and would not lose sleep over tying the same sized materials on a hook with a larger gap.

 

But this is just my opin.

 

BCT

 

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[SilverCreek 0]

Consider the hook a skeleton and the hook shank the spine. The hook shank determines the length of the standard dry fly. The rule of thumb for a dry mayfly is that the length of the hook shank = length of the fly body (head and abdomen and thorax) = length of the fly tail = length of the fly wing. Logically then, we should forget the gap and measure materials against the hook length, which corellates to the actual body length of the insect.

 

However, I seem to recall that for the Partridge of Reddich model perfect bend dry fly hook, the length of the hook shank = 1.5 X hook gape. The most popular dry lfy hook in the USA was the Mustad 94840. The 94840 has a model perfect round bend as well. So tying books used the hook gape of common dry fly hooks rather than the shank length which is more logical.

 

For the commonly used Mustad 94840 the shank length is about 1.5 X gap width.

 

 

With an extra short hook or an extra wide gap, this 1.5 X relationship does not hold. So measure the hackles and tails against the hook shank.

 

For parachute flies, the hackle can be a bit longer so for a size 14 parachute, you would use the hackle size that is normally used for a size 13 or size 12 standard dry fly.

 

After you have tied for a long time, you will find that a hackle guage is not needed. Just by eyeballing the tails and hackle, you can get the size spot on.

[TableGrouch 0]

I think I've found home. Great input all, thanks.

 

I like the idea of marginally oversizing the hackle for the parachute. That seems to make good sense and should help with flotation. Every so often I do tie one that tips a bit too easily. Don't think the trout much like the inverted "turtle" parachute presentation.

 

Probably overthinking this as I've been doing this for awhile and have never used a sizing chart, just eyeballing it, but have always done so versus the hook gap. I'm done with replenishing nymph boxes and started on my dry boxes in preparation for this year. Bugs me a bit when I look in the box and the 18's look a little too much like the 16's (which got me started on this.). Not certain I entirely trust the shank for measurement either, although I can see where it makes sense. I don't think Redditch measurements hold up much any longer with modern fly hooks, shanks seem longer. I usually tie with TMC but have some old Mustad 94840 16s. Eyeballed them against a ruler and in general the shank (not including eye or where the bend begins) is about 2X gap. TMC is even a bit longer, but that is a wide gape hook.

 

I guess the only measure that truly matters is at the end of the tippet when the trout takes or refuses.