Dubbing loop vs wax, pros cons, best usage of each?

[TheCream 0]

I use dubbing loops a lot for synthetics like Ice Dub. I feel like I get better results with the loop on that particular type of material. For dries and nymphs with standard dubbing (like hare's ear or Orvis' Spectrablend) I just dub to the thread.

[FrequentTyer 0]

I never wax the thread unless I'm touch dubbing. As stated above, a touch on the fingers to provide traction is really all you need. I have started to use an interesting twist (no pun intended) on dubbing loops that I really like. It is based on a method that I read about used by Polly Rosborough in which he placed a formed dubbing noodle into the loop. I actually dub one side of the loop a bit more loosely than if I were dubbing a dry fly body and then spin the loop to cord it up tightly. This can them be used to form a very tight segmented body for a dryfly or nymph and can be brushed out for buggier flys. It works great with muskrat.

Mike.

[Ruffells311 0]

Ever since I tied a fly using a dubbing loop I love it. Ive recently started using dubbing loops and just marabou or wool or something breathable to cover up thread wraps and on heads of flies like a bend back (I like to use bead chain eyes for a lot of my bend backs so this helps a lot with the heads) or clouser (steamers for the matter). And I'll cut the material to the right size head if too big. Just something to make them look more natural and smooth than just thread showing. But just twisting on things like wool is sometimes better for working in smaller spaces on your fly or if needed to use a very small amount.

[JaxFlyTyer 0]

How in the heck do you do a loop w/o wax? Since the local shops specialize in saltwater they don't carry wax and I have yet to order some. However, while trying to tie Charlie Craven's Ragun' Craven I was ready to pull my hair out. I'd put some craft fur in the loop but it'd fall out when I went to add the next batch. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't figure out how to do it w/o wax to hold the first batch in place while you add the rest.

[FrequentTyer 0]

How in the heck do you do a loop w/o wax? Since the local shops specialize in saltwater they don't carry wax and I have yet to order some. However, while trying to tie Charlie Craven's Ragun' Craven I was ready to pull my hair out. I'd put some craft fur in the loop but it'd fall out when I went to add the next batch. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't figure out how to do it w/o wax to hold the first batch in place while you add the rest.

 

I'm not familiar with that fly and I don't use craft fur, but I have seen Gary Borger tie with craft fur in loops without wax. He simply stacked everything up on the table top first and then added it all to the loop at once. I have used a binder clip to build a muskrat collar from underfur and guard hairs and then transfer the whole thing to the loop at once. If you want some wax, send me a PM and I'll drop a stick in the mail for you. I make my own for touch dubbing but it should work fine for trapping fur in loops.

[JaxFlyTyer 0]

I'll have to try that. I just saw something about using a clip. I appreciate the offer! PM inbound!

[10% 0]

Something you might want to consider in selecting material and technique is the trait Polly Rosbourough deemed most important. Polly roughed up his bodies with a hacksaw blade to enhance their ability to store air. The release of which gives the nymph lifelike characteristics.

[Piker20 0]

How in the heck do you do a loop w/o wax? Since the local shops specialize in saltwater they don't carry wax and I have yet to order some. However, while trying to tie Charlie Craven's Ragun' Craven I was ready to pull my hair out. I'd put some craft fur in the loop but it'd fall out when I went to add the next batch. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't figure out how to do it w/o wax to hold the first batch in place while you add the rest.

 

I tied the following fly with craft fur in a no wax split loop.

 

I split my thread around 4cm. Insert some fur, twist and wrap, untwist split again fur twist wrap etc till I have the amount on I want. A dubbing brush would be far easier.

[Bruce Derington 0]

Rockworm gives us great information and his explanations are right on (as usual). I might add that when applying dubbing to the thread use very small amounts, its much easier to add more dubbing, to dubbing, should you need to increase diammeter, and only "roll" material in one direction

[10% 0]

I never wax the thread unless I'm touch dubbing. As stated above, a touch on the fingers to provide traction is really all you need. I have started to use an interesting twist (no pun intended) on dubbing loops that I really like. It is based on a method that I read about used by Polly Rosborough in which he placed a formed dubbing noodle into the loop. I actually dub one side of the loop a bit more loosely than if I were dubbing a dry fly body and then spin the loop to cord it up tightly. This can them be used to form a very tight segmented body for a dryfly or nymph and can be brushed out for buggier flys. It works great with muskrat.

Mike.

 

I am certainly not on the level of most of the tyers on this forum, however Polly took me under his wing so to speak more years ago than I care to remember and the technique described above has no peers as far as I'm concerned. The devil is in the details. Pollys technique allowed you to modify the material as the body progressed, start with too much and pick and pull to form collars or build up spots.....the added thread (dubbing loop) served to make the body very tough...but not neccessarily to prolong the usefulness of the nymph. Fuzzy..yeah so they were Fuzzy...or Buggy or whatever....heres where the devil comes in. Why did Polly use a dubbing loop and materials that were the Kevlar of the animal kingdom.....if you had ever seen Polly attack a freshly tied nymph with a fine tooth hacksaw blade youd know. If you still didnt snap and he thought you were worth the effort he would lead you to the kitchen sink or a pan of water; where upon he would drop the bug. Not long after settling to the bottom air bubbles trapped by the densely wound abraded bodies wound begin to emanate and the offering would .....move......Polly reckoned that was the difference in fishing and catching.

 

Below are some of the flies out of a collection of Pollys that instigated as severe a verbal assault as I ever got from the old chatterbox. He wasn't keen on me putting a display of his flys tied at "production speed" together and the lady at the gallery in Klammath Falls where Polly was a frequent visitor and I had engaged to oversee the little collection dropped a dime on me. Even though I had attached the names of the flies to the respective bug in order that she could charge me an incredible amount to freehand the names on the display, she felt it imperative to consult on the proper spelling of Big Yellow Mayfly with Polly the next time he dropped by. Apologize for bending your ear, he was a good guy.

[Byron 0]

I am probably the only one in the tying world to do this: I tie a lot of sparkle duns. Often, the zelon material is just way too "crinkly", so, I finger apply a bit of dubbing to sort of "wax" the zelon a little straighter.

[Will K 0]

How in the heck do you do a loop w/o wax? Since the local shops specialize in saltwater they don't carry wax and I have yet to order some. However, while trying to tie Charlie Craven's Ragun' Craven I was ready to pull my hair out. I'd put some craft fur in the loop but it'd fall out when I went to add the next batch. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't figure out how to do it w/o wax to hold the first batch in place while you add the rest.

 

Check J Stockard or Bears den web sites. there is a tool, Pettyjean "perfect" tool or something similar - I've seen it on one or both of those sites and seen others using it. It's basically a clip, so you stack material in there, then can slide it into the loop, and bingo.

 

that said, "wetting" the loop with some face oil (yes, it sounds gross but can work - just rub your finger on your nose super well, then on the loop) it gets just enough tack that you can load a fairly long section with craft fur or similar material - san's wax...

[phg 0]

Before commercial dubbing wax was available, tiers used soft bee's wax.

 

You could also brew up your own dubbing wax by mixing a small amount of candle wax (1/4) with a large amount of petroleum jelly (3/4). Heat it just enough to melt it (near boiling water will do the trick) stir it together and let it cool. The resulting cake of wax should be tacky enough. If it isn't, add more petroleum jelly.

[FrequentTyer 0]

Before commercial dubbing wax was available, tiers used soft bee's wax.

 

You could also brew up your own dubbing wax by mixing a small amount of candle wax (1/4) with a large amount of petroleum jelly (3/4). Heat it just enough to melt it (near boiling water will do the trick) stir it together and let it cool. The resulting cake of wax should be tacky enough. If it isn't, add more petroleum jelly.

 

That may work, but you can do better. Beeswax is a better starting material. The candle wax will be mostly paraffin, which is a fairly hard wax, and you really need some pine pitch or rosin mixed in to get it tacky. The petroleum jelly or olive oil in some of the recipes helps to soften the end product, but more than a few drops will just make it greasy. I played around a lot with different combinations and it really is surprising how small additions or subtractions can drastically alter the outcome. If you decide to go the homebrew route, you can find a few recipes through Google that make use of violin bow rosin. Otherwise, a toilet seal ring is cheap and will suffice.

[Mike1958 0]

For dubbing techniques and dubbing loops, go to this video that flytire sent me:

 

http://ukflydressing.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=sbs&action=display&thread=4046

 

Excellent link!