Elk Hair Caddis - Mounting Hackle Question

[BlueEyedSon 0]

I just got some supplies that I'd ordered and I'm working on the elk hair caddis pattern. According to Leeson and Schollmeyer's Benchside Introduction to Fly Tying, which was recommended to me, I should mount the hackle with the dull side facing upwards. However, I've also seen some videos and instructions that suggest mounting the hackle with the shiny side facing upwards. I understand this distinction and the difference it makes when wrapped. At least, I think I understand the difference - it can effect the direction the barbules face once the hackle is wrapped, either facing towards the eye of the hook when mounted with dull side up or away from it when the shiny side is up. Assuming I have that distinction right, does it make any difference in terms of how the fly works? My guess is no, but I'm new to fly tying and fly fishing, for that matter. Any thoughts?

[André Ribeiro 0]

In most of the cases, the feathers have a natural concavity, and it matches with the shiny side. So if you want a natural movement of the hackle (bristles facing backward) tie the shiny side upward. But if your intent is to produce a reversed hackle (like the Kebaris), use the other side of the feather.

 

I guess in this particular case, Elk Hair Caddis, because of the characteristics of the dries hackles (short and firm bristles), it will makes no difference.

 

Big Hug

[utyer 0]

Just leave the hackle off. It will work fine without any hackle at all.

[Old Hat 0]

For the most part, I agree with utyer. I think the pattern fishes better with no hackle and with or without a little Z-Lon or Antron "tail" (see X-caddis). However, for very rough water I still like hackle, and in that case I have found there is no difference for how the fly fishes dependent on the hackle direction. Now, if you are tying to photograph or as a gift etc. I think the hackle pointing to the rear is aesthetically pleasing, but the fish won't care.

[Piker20 0]

I have another view on this for caddis patterns. As Andre says the hackle will naturally want to lay back against the hook if tied shiny side up. I like to skate and gently pull my caddis through the surface and I believe tying the hackle so the barbules angle forward increases the resistance and movement against the water pressure. I am not trying to make the caddis into a popper, just gently movement and having the hackle that way must cause more movement than if it wants to fold back?

It also depends on the quality of your dry hackle and if you have very stiff hackles I agree it makes a smaller difference.

[flytire 0]

tyers preference

 

neither way is right or wrong

[André Ribeiro 0]

I agree that in some cases, the presence of one item will makes no difference, and you aways could apply modifications that sometimes will produce flies better than the original recipe.

 

But in this specific case I think the hackle is important, look at the proportions of the EHC:

 

 

In many flies, every material has a function. The hackle in EHC works like outriggers, confering equilibrium to the fly, without it I guess the fly will not aways land straight.

 

Big Hug

[Piker20 0]

Assuming you make even wraps of the hackle around and can lie your hair on the top level. If the hackle makes the wing lie off centre you would be worse than having no hackle at all and a centered wing.

[phg 0]

On an EHC, the hackle also provides the illusion of legs and movement. I fish a lot of X-caddis, but I also fish a lot of EHC.

 

Two observations, from years of experience. First, when using a neck hackle, the stems are quite thin, and will often twist as you wind. As a result, it doesn't really matter which way you tie the hackle in, it's going to wind the way it wants to. From a practical standpoint, though, it makes little difference with a neck hackle, as the barbs are very thin and flexible.

 

Second, when using a saddle hackle, especially the Whiting saddles, the hackle barbs are shorter, thicker and have a more pronounced curve. With these, it does make a difference which way you tie them in.

 

As a personal preference, I prefer the finer barbs of a neck hackle on my EHC's. I feel they give it a more lifelike action.

 

I should also point out that it also makes a difference whether you are winding the hackle from front to back, as in the original EHC, or back to front, as many of us do.

[André Ribeiro 0]

Assuming you make even wraps of the hackle around and can lie your hair on the top level. If the hackle makes the wing lie off centre you would be worse than having no hackle at all and a centered wing.

That's true, but if you have a descentered wing, with or without hackle your fly is unbalanced.

The wing pulls the gravity center of the fly upward, and this will make it lies on it's sides. Adding a hackle, the lower bristles will bring back the gravity center, and the side bristles will help maintain the fly on the surface.

[shoebop 0]

Too much ado about nothing. Tie it any way that suits you as long as the proportions are right and not out of balance.

[flytire 0]

^ditto^

 

fly tyers can be masters at making things complicated

 

http://www.google.com/search?q=elk+hair+caddis&nord=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=yjLFU4DDA4_G7Ab_t4GQDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1292&bih=676&safe=active

 

count all of the ones that have the hackle pointing forward and all of the ones pointing aft and see which one wins

 

regardless of which way the hackle points the fibers will still act as "outriggers" to aid in floatation and as a visual effect of legs

 

again, tyers preference

 

if all of that fails tie a cdc & elk and be done with hackling

[SilverCreek 0]

My opinion is that the hackle on an EHC is to provide additional floatation in fast water. So the EHC is a fast water caddis or an imitation of a fluttering caddis. There are better slow water caddis patterns that have a flat wing profile rather than the canted wing of an EHC. To convert an EHC to a slow water pattern, clip the bottom hackle so the fly sits lower on the water.

When Al Troth invented the EHC in 1957, there was no stiff genetic hackle that we have today.

There were and still are two thoughts on how the hackle could be wrapped with the India necks that were used in the 1950s. The first is that with lower quality hackle, the hackle should be tied with the concave dull side facing forward. The hackle is pushed back by the cast and the hackle will be more vertical when it lands. If the fly was tied the shiny convex side forward, the cast would bend the hackle back and it would be less able to float the fly.

Why then would you wind India neck hackle with the convex side facing forward? The reason is that when you wind the hackle from the rear of the fly to the front as you do with a EHK, you can make the wind closer together because the hackle fibers are facing backwards and not in the way of the next wraps. More wraps means better floatation.

With the stiff genetic necks that we have today, there is less of a curve and it does not make much functional difference. My preference is to wind with the shiny convex side forward because it makes winding the hackle easier, when I use hackle.

I tie most of my EHC's without hackle and I think they are more realistic because of their lower position on the water. I tie some with hackle for the times I want to fish a EHC in the riffles.

Another reason I want EHCs without hackle is that some ovipositing caddis dive under water to lay their eggs and a EHC without hackle is just more realistic when underwater.

“Many caddisfly females dive underwater to lay their eggs on the stream bottom. Some crawl down objects to do this but most swim right down through the water column. The latter are responsible for my fastest trout fishing action ever -- days when trout raced each other to attack my flies the moment they hit the water, cast after cast.”

http://www.troutnut.com/hatch/12/Insect-Trichoptera-Caddisflies

[BlueEyedSon 0]

Thanks to all for sharing their experience on this question. As someone new to tying, I thought I'd try to follow the directions, but just got confused when I found different directions. I find the various thoughts and rationales shared above very interesting. So, thanks!