bendback question

[FattyMatt 0]

A question for all you fly physicists...

 

We know the ideal bend is achieved when you can create an imaginary line from the start of your bend to the center of the bend of the hook (see attached pic). This will ensure the fly turns over every time.

 

However, in some hooks this bendback shape is too extreme and doesn't jive with the shape of your bug.

 

Let's say I'm tying bonefish flies and I want to get away with bead chain eyes, but they aren't enough to turn the fly over, but at the same time I don't want a full bendback shape.

 

Will a less extreme bend help move the center of gravity? Or is it all or nothing?

[FattyMatt 0]

As a follow-up, can someone recommend a link to buy 60 degree hooks, sizes 2 through 8, NOT in bulk (I'm only looking for 10 or 25 packs to tie some skinny water, unweighted hook-up bugs for the Bahamas)

 

Thanks

[Hatchet Jack 0]

"Will a less extreme bend help move the center of gravity?"

Yes.

 

"Or is it all or nothing?"

No.

 

Don't know if they're still made, but a Mustad keel hook might fit your desires.

 

And to answer your question(s) in a broader sense, sometimes it is helpful to model a puzzle in two extremes.

For example, what would the effect be to have a sailboat's weighted keel 10' below the hull versus 1' below the hull?

That sort of thing........

 

BTW, I'm only a bottle rocket scientist.

 

 

[TheCream 0]

To help get the fly to keel with bead chain, you could do what is sometimes referred to as a "lift kit," also. Jay Zimmerman has talked about this before in articles and books. Use some material on the hook shank to move the bead chain eyes farther out from the shank instead of tying them right onto the shank. This moves the weight away from the shank and can help it flip the hook over.

[josephcsylvia 0]

Its not just about bend when it comes to turning a hook over, what material you use and where you tie it makes a big difference to. If you high tie all your material on the underside of the hook and use material like synthetic or bucktail it will flip over just fine with beadchain eyes.

 

Alot of bonefish flies are tied with beadchain eyes and they ride hook point up.

[heavynets 0]

Something else to keep in mind are the static forces vs the dynamic forces. In other words, if the fly hook is just dropped into the water the heavier side of the hook will rotate to the lower side of the pivot point, however, when you strip a fly, the forces on the materials on the fly MAY overcome its weight and cause it to do the opposite or even spin. Also, when the fly rests on the bottom, it often fall on its side. This makes the hook point up design no better than a hook point down design.

 

So be sure to test your designs before you tie a bunch, to be sure they are doing what you intent.

[Cold 0]

You've already gotten a lot of good information here.

 

Only a few minor things I'd add at this point:

 

1. Jig hooks and bendbacks accomplish similar end results in very different ways. I wouldn't really recommend trying to tie a bendback on a jig hook.

 

2. It helps to look at the hook as a sort of spindle. Any given weight will have more impact on how the fly rides (and it's stability and tracking in that orientation) the farther it is from the finished fly's axis (the centerline of its longitudinal rotation). My bendbacks often have no "heavy" eyes at all (just the plastic stick-on kind), and they ride just fine. Get the bend set in the hook, then put some lead wire wraps about the shank near the original bend of the hook (where you'd tie in the tail of a dry fly). This will add significant weight, and place it about as far off-axis as you can physically put it on the fly, maximizing its effect. I then cover these lead wraps up with estaz, ice dub, or even just thread that I'll eventually hit with a prismacolor marker and coat in UV resin. High-drag, light materials above the axis and low-drag heavy material below = a fly that will fly right.

[Philly 0]

I checked through some of my non-fly fishing catalogs and 60 degree jig hooks are hard to find in the sizes and quantities you're looking for. Also they won't be stainless or tin plated for salt water. Feather-Craft has the 60 degree jig hooks in the sizes you're looking for Partridge, TMC and Gamakatsu.

[RexW 0]

"The Fly Shop" has 60 degree hooks down to size 6 in 25 pc packages in their house brand. Model TFS 5444 hooks.

[FattyMatt 0]

Wow, I am really impressed by these responses, you guys know your stuff. Many of you mentioned things I've considered, but I've got a list of new things I haven't yet played with.

 

Josephc, many bonefish flies ride hook up with bead chain, and many bonefish flies CLAIM to ride hook up with bead chain, but this is not the case.

Veverkas mantis shrimp is a great example and was the inspiration for this post.

 

It's an awesome fly with tons of movement that catches everything from bones to smb, but the original recipe calls for med bead chain, which doesn't come close to turning the fly over. Only med to heavy lead eyes make it ride hpu, and all that weight will spook flats fish.

 

I think a mild bendback bend, with minimal strategically placed flat lead wire and buoyant material emphasized in the right places should allow me to use the smallest bead chain (or maybe none at all?) and will be a major improvement on this fly for the flats.

 

I get a big shipment of materials this week, I'll post my results soon

 

Thanks guys!

 

Matt

[FattyMatt 0]

PS - Cold, I wasnt planning on bending the 60 degree hook. Many bonefish and carp flies are being tied on small 60 degree hooks to get a hpu bug with no weight.

[Cold 0]

PS - Cold, I wasnt planning on bending the 60 degree hook. Many bonefish and carp flies are being tied on small 60 degree hooks to get a hpu bug with no weight.

Gotcha. Just wanted to make sure.

 

Yeah, basically, the two variables that determine hook attitude are weight and water resistance. The hook being metal has high weight and comparatively low resistance. So if you add no weight and resistant materials tied high, even a straight shanked hook can ride point up.

[Cold 0]

Here's one I did a few years ago (when I started tying the bendback style) without weighted eyes (sorry I don't have a better picture, this was a snap I sent to a buddy and it's all I have uploaded at the moment).

 

 

On the shank I have the lead wire, covered in metallic gold chenille/estaz, and I just did a few turns of red laser dub in a loop behind the eyes, that I brushed down over the gold. Wing from SF material.

 

Rode the right way, no problems, every time...until a pike stole it from me!

[tidewaterfly 0]

FattyMatt, IMO the "bendback" hook you posted, starting this thread is bent too much. A slight bend has proven to produce better hooking. Bend the hook too much it drags the point the hook point, often making it difficult to get a good, consistent hook set. I tie my Bendbacks on straight shank hooks, and they still invert.

 

Traditionally, Bendback style flies are tied with buoyant materials such as bucktail to help invert the hook, but also the materials can be "lifted" to change the angle relative to the hook bend as TheCream has mentioned doing with the bead chain. When changing the center of gravity is desired, all the materials have to be considered, not simply the hook.

 

I've still go some other keel hooks that TheCream mentioned too. However, what I have was made by Eagle Claw & in stainless steel. They're too big for bonefish flies.

 

Although also too large for Bonefish flies, offset plastic worm hooks can be used for inverting a fly without added weight, again based on the center of gravity achieved with materials placement. VMC makes an offset wide gap hook that has a longer front section which makes them much easier to tie on.

 

There are Bonefish/Flats style patterns that are tied with no added weight, and are tied so the hook is inverted. A combination of materials placement, your bead chain eyes & possibly buoyant materials can accomplish this.

[FattyMatt 0]

I'm really conscious of what materials go where and and in what proportions. These 3 flies show what I mean. The first crab has no weight, no lead strip. That wing of elk hair is more than enough to turn it over. The second one has lead strips, but it seems to me that the hair only being long on the top is what turns it over.

 

The 3rd is an SF pattern I did with the ewg worm hook you mentioned. I love them, if they made em in a size 4 or 6 it would be awesome.

 

As far as the angle of that bendback, I was told that line is just where you want it, making sure that after your materials are tied, you need to be able to run your finger over the fly and catch it on the hook point.

 

Regardless, my whole goal is to have less extreme bend, so I will follow your advice and see what happens.

 

Matt