What does a true Cree hackle look like?

[mvendon 0]

 

 

I don't think you'll find much mention of cree hackle before the advent of selective genetic breeding. It's still the most rare of colors and the most expensive.

 

Cree is a natural variation found in wild stock and non-genetically-bred chickens. However, I think such a bird with greater than 60% cree feathers would be very rare.

 

 

According to Dr. Whiting from around 10 - 12 years ago, Cree isn't the most rare hackle color, at least as far as his flocks go.

 

Very nice job on those flies Norm, and great pic's !

 

Regards,

Mark

[Bryon Anderson 0]

Interesting article in Hatches magazine about the origins of the Adams, written by the owner of the excellent website www.michigandryflies.net.

 

http://hatchesmagazine.com/blogs/Hatches/2010/04/19/the-adams-history-revisited-by-tom-deschaine/

 

According to this, Leonard Halladay, the acknowledged creator of the Adams, raised his own hackle. In the original pattern recipe, he not only specifies that the hackle is to be a bicolor mix, he specifies the species of roosters it should come from: the Barred Plymouth Rock and the Rhode Island Red. By all accounts I've ever read or heard, Halladay was not a man of great wealth, so I doubt he would have had Cree hackle on hand; since the naturally occurring color is even more rare than the genetically-engineered version, so you'd have to figure it would have been the most expensive, even back then. Plain old brown and grizzly from his own birds would have been abundant, however, so it makes sense that he would have gone to those colors when designing flies.

Just my $0.02

BTW, the record should reflect that I'm as guilty of bastardizing the Adams as anyone -- I use mongoose hair (purchased before it was illegal in the US) or moose body hair for the tails on mine, and I tie only parachutes with wings of synthetic fibers and synthetic-dubbing bodies. About as un-traditional as you can get and still call it an Adams. Actually, I do tie one other version, the Adams Wulff. Great fly, no matter which way you dress it up.

[flytire 0]

I like these variations

 

Adams humpy

 

http://washingtonflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/adams-humpy-sbs.100856/

 

Wooly adams

 

http://washingtonflyfishing.com/forum/index.php?threads/woolly-adams.99232/

[Ed Gallop 0]

I did a fairly extensive study of "True" Cree with the help of a friend in Spain, Paco. I may still have my research packed away in the basement. It is actually a breed in northwestern Spain, not far from the Leon Mountains where Coq de Leon originated, and is still of the highest quality. The trouble with Spaniards is they cherish their history and uniqueness so much that they do not sell their chickens or fertile eggs to anyone. I tried but couldn't.

 

There was a relative of a Coq de Leon farm living in the US that went to Spain and brought back Coq de Leon eggs (I think 2 or 3 dozen) for Whiting and he was very pi$$ed because Whiting cut him out of a verbal deal they had. According to him, Whiting only paid his air fare and owed him much more than that. I can't remember his name and I'd have to search the basement for his letters. He laughed when I asked him to get me some Cree eggs, but I was serious. I think he has since moved back to Spain and likely made up with the enemies he made for Whiting. I do not know if what he said was true but have no reason to doubt him. Whiting's Coq de Leon is a product of those original eggs.

 

I have seen the real Cree and the chevron barring is opposite than the genetic cross breeds. So are the colors and they are much more distinct. I bred my very best Brown Leghorns and Barred Rocks in two pens with opposite sexes to get the genetic Cree and it worked. Both beautiful breeds came together in nature. But I only got about one good fully covered neck from a hundred hatches. Most were quite splotchy. It would take breeding the best of the hens and cocks hundreds or thousands of times to get a dominate gene established. I was way to old and unequipped for that.

 

True Cree is a beautiful but very rare feather. If I were into breeding again, and was much younger, I'd be tempted to risk my life by sneaking into a hen house in northwestern Spain to snatch about a dozen true Cree eggs. Not really. Ed.

[vicrider 0]

I just paid a goodly sum for a Cree cape and am disappointed. I have bought some Cree 100 packs of Whiting and they were great. Colors jumped out at your and they were all there. This Cree cape is not much more than a barred ginger. No distinct white and black in it at all. Looks like a Cree that faded out. The feathers themselves are great and lot of distinct sizes and fairly long usable lengths for a cape, but as a Cree a definite disappointment from what I hoped for when I paid more for it than I did for 5 different colored half capes combined.

[flytire 0]

from the denny Conrad link on page 1

 

"My advise to the fly tier that wants to tie with Cree, is to purchase with caution. If you are willing to pay extra for a color that someone may or may not have labeled correctly, it's your money. I seriously doubt if anyone would ever find a Cree on E-Bay or hanging in a local shop. True Cree are almost always sold before the brokers get their hands on them."

[Ed Gallop 0]

My memory isn't what it used to be when younger, but I remembered... The true Cree is actually Crele and the species is Penedesencausa. I already spent too much time in the house and need to get out. I did find the link at http://penedesencausa.com/crele.html but the pictures are not good. I know there were clear close ups years ago that a fly tying old timer posted from England. I'm bad with names. Sorry. But the point is, they are different and Crele was changed to Cree. I think it refers to the color. Hope I put you on a trail.

 

The genetic Cree do vary considerably. As I said, "one in a hundred" turns out decent. You are best to see the saddle, or neck, when buying. As mentioned before... It's your money though". Ed.

[Bazzer69 0]

I just paid a goodly sum for a Cree cape and am disappointed. I have bought some Cree 100 packs of Whiting and they were great. Colors jumped out at your and they were all there. This Cree cape is not much more than a barred ginger. No distinct white and black in it at all. Looks like a Cree that faded out. The feathers themselves are great and lot of distinct sizes and fairly long usable lengths for a cape, but as a Cree a definite disappointment from what I hoped for when I paid more for it than I did for 5 different colored half capes combined.

Now i'm worried, I ordered a Whiting Cree Cape from featheremporium and Im concerned it won't be any better than the Metz that I have already have, still they have a good return policy. We shall see

[vicrider 0]

Bazzer, I hope you come out well. I wasn't going to mention names since it's not fair to supplier but...

 

Never mind, I won't mention names but...anyway, hope you do better than i did...if my purchase happened to be the same as yours.

[Bazzer69 0]

Bazzer, I hope you come out well. I wasn't going to mention names since it's not fair to supplier but...

 

Never mind, I won't mention names but...anyway, hope you do better than i did...if my purchase happened to be the same as yours.

Oh Bugger!!! Bad reports are as important as good ones.

[Ed Gallop 0]

The link I posted doesn't work because it is broken. If you copy and paste it in it will work. The saddle on the third one down is the best picture and it isn't very good. If I find close-ups I'll post it. Sorry.

 

Actually bad reports can be better than good ones. Bad reports can save you money. Good reports can cause you to spend money, but that is fine. Ed..

[barrytheguide 0]

Here is a photo of the Whiting Cree cape that I received. It's a mixture of Ginger, Furnace and Grizzly. And of course mostly Cree. Some of the feathers start out at the base as Ginger/Funace and change to Cree. These make for a very interesting Adams. A mixture of the traditional dressing and the modern. Is it true Cree? I'm not sure but judge for youself.

The quality of the cape is excellent. The feathers are long enough to tie two or three flies. Very dense barbs and very stiff.

I have been tying my version of a Klinkhammer Adams, as yet untried, but it looks good

[flytire 0]

to my eye it looks too grizzly

 

the color only matters to YOU. if You accept it as cree then that's what it is

[Ed Gallop 0]

Dammit! I just lost everything I wrote. Anyway, without going through all tha againt... You are correct Flytire. It really doesn't matter. I scanned and an posted a part of my Whiting Cree and it is very similar to barrytheguide. Truth is, I don't care for it.

 

I bred Brown Leghorns with Barred Rocks and came up with a lot like that. Only one in over a hundred was evenly colored and had good contrast. I would rather tie Adams with both brown and grizzly because it has better contrast. Cree may be desired by many but I see no advantage in it.

 

My contacts many years ago with European tiers was nice. I was shown pictures of Crele and was very impressed. Unlike Cree, it had great contrast between the white, black, and brown chevrons. I would get some if I could because I like collecting unusual materials, but it wouldn't make better Adams.

 

[barrytheguide 0]

I not only lost my reply, but the reply from Flytire as well, sometimes screwy with the system.

I agree totally that Cree is very subjective, beauty is in the eye of the beholder!

I've been guiding for many years and started out with casting lessons with Tommy Edwards of Hardys of London and I've learnt that the same hackle and the same fly is named many things depending on who you talk to.

I'm happy with my "Cree" and I'll use it on a number of differnt patterns. At the moment I'm tying some Klinkhammer Adams (note for grammar police it's now Adams and not Adam's) and there's me thinking this was a fly tying forum.