I'm going need some hackle pretty soon.

[ralphs007 0]

I've been learning with Charlie Cravens fly tying book,and I'm going to need some dry fly hackle pretty soon. I was thinking of buying http://www.jsflyfishing.com/whiting-farms-introductory-hackle-pack. But then I was reading that Collins Hackle Farm, includes the saddle with the purchase of a cape. I was thinking that if I purchase four, grade 3 capes for 120.00,along with the free saddles,I'd be better off, instead of buying the Whiting farms introductory pack. I figured ,I might as well bite the bullet now,instead of buying the intro pack. So far, I only plan on tying trout flies.

Is this a good idea or should I stick with the Whiting intro pack.

Thanks in advance

Ralph

[utyer 0]

If that's the price difference, you are getting full necks and three full saddles with the Collins Farm purchase. Three full Whiting pro grade hackles and saddles would be much more than 120. Grizzly, Brown (Ginger,) and Dun would be the three colors.

[Cold 0]

It's worth noting that the saddles that come with Charlie's necks are *not* suitable for tying dry flies. They're good for poppers, buggers, streamers, etc. but you shouldn't look at it in terms of getting the equivalent of a whiting cape and saddle for the asking price.

 

It's also worth noting that, if the Whiting necks are anything like the Herbert Miner neck in my stash (I'm typically a dry saddle guy), you can expect to get 2-4 flies per feather compared to the Collins neck where you will need 1-2 feathers per fly.

 

I'm not saying that Collins hackle isn't good. It is. And it'll keep your dries up just as well as a Whiting feather. But in between the pelt and the water, Whiting is the easier of the two on the tyer at the bench. More barb density (you'll need about 2.5 wraps of a Collins to get as many barbs as one wrap from a Whiting feather) and longer feathers are the primary advantages to Whiting. Stem thickness, pliability, barb consistency, etc. are all more or less the same between the two. And Collins competes on price.

 

Aesthetically, the Collins feathers' barbs tend to be thinner and more flexible, resulting in an overall more delicate looking fly. The barbs also have more of a shine to them.

 

Personally, I'd get the Whiting starter pack. That way you know you're tying with the best handling hackle available, so if you're struggling with a fly, you can be sure it's you, not the feather. A half neck will last you a long, long time. I have quarter saddles I've been tying with for 5-6 years now, and you can't even tell they've been picked at. Necks are even more dense than that. Later on, when you want a particular shade of dun or tone of grizzly, you can try out a Collins neck, and I'm sure you'll like it too, but you'll have the background of dry fly tying experience to help you adjust to the slightly more difficult to use feathers. Plus there's the free saddle, of course.

[SilverCreek 0]

When you buy a saddle, it is important to know what the main sizes of the flies you will be tying. Whiting and Hebert Miner saddles are very consistent around a specific hackle size and will usually tie 2 sizes with a few hackles tying a third size. So if you are tying mainly size 14 flies (the most common size of dry mayfly) you want a size 14 saddle. Whiting saddles usually run smaller than that. Hebert Miner saddles generally are a larger size than Whitings. So you need to specify the size of hackle you want in a saddle. Unless I am tying size 16 and smaller, I prefer Hebert Miner saddles.

I never buy hackle that I have not sorted myself. You are depending on whether the dealer just picks a random pkg or really pays attention to your needs.

With a neck, there are a variety of sizes. But for my purposes, I tie the same sizes every year for the hatches that fish and buying a saddle is cheapest way for me. For you, just starting out, I would look at the sizes of flies that you use and specify the size of the hackle you want in the saddle.

 

[Bryon Anderson 0]

It's worth noting that the saddles that come with Charlie's necks are *not* suitable for tying dry flies. They're good for poppers, buggers, streamers, etc. but you shouldn't look at it in terms of getting the equivalent of a whiting cape and saddle for the asking price.

I've been using Collins hackle for many years and I've never found this to be the case. I typically buy his Grade 2 necks/saddles and all the saddles I've gotten from him have been very good quality for dry flies.

 

It's also worth noting that, if the Whiting necks are anything like the Herbert Miner neck in my stash (I'm typically a dry saddle guy), you can expect to get 2-4 flies per feather compared to the Collins neck where you will need 1-2 feathers per fly.

 

I have never needed more than one feather from a Collins neck to tie a single dry flie, and I typically get at least 2 dry flies per feather from a Collins saddle. Whiting hackle is good, no question, but I have never found that much of a quality gap between Collins and Whiting, Metz, Keough or any of the other "big name" hackle growers out there.

 

What I would do is order ONE neck/saddle from Collins, take it to your local fly shop and compare it to the Whiting hackle there. If you like Collins' quality, you can always go back and buy more. If you come to the conclusion that you simply must have the Whiting, it will be right there.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

One last thought--back when I first started ordering from Collins--this would have been in the mid-to-late 1990's--you could request a small "sampler" of his hackle and he would send it to you at no charge. It was just a few feathers, but enough to tie a few flies and get an idea of the quality. I don't know if he still does this or not, but it might be worth asking.

[fishinguy 0]

Check this out if you haven't. http://www.flyfishfood.com/2014/09/hackle-comparisons.html?m=1

[Cold 0]

 

It's worth noting that the saddles that come with Charlie's necks are *not* suitable for tying dry flies. They're good for poppers, buggers, streamers, etc. but you shouldn't look at it in terms of getting the equivalent of a whiting cape and saddle for the asking price.

I've been using Collins hackle for many years and I've never found this to be the case. I typically buy his Grade 2 necks/saddles and all the saddles I've gotten from him have been very good quality for dry flies.

 

It's also worth noting that, if the Whiting necks are anything like the Herbert Miner neck in my stash (I'm typically a dry saddle guy), you can expect to get 2-4 flies per feather compared to the Collins neck where you will need 1-2 feathers per fly.

 

I have never needed more than one feather from a Collins neck to tie a single dry flie, and I typically get at least 2 dry flies per feather from a Collins saddle. Whiting hackle is good, no question, but I have never found that much of a quality gap between Collins and Whiting, Metz, Keough or any of the other "big name" hackle growers out there.

 

What I would do is order ONE neck/saddle from Collins, take it to your local fly shop and compare it to the Whiting hackle there. If you like Collins' quality, you can always go back and buy more. If you come to the conclusion that you simply must have the Whiting, it will be right there.

 

Hmmm, even allowing for variance between birds, it seems your experience has been significantly different from mine. The only dries I could see being tied with my Collins saddles would be if I had some occasion to need like a #8 or larger dry. If you're going through a significant number of dries in that size, I want to fish where you're fishing! Of course it's also possible that you simply prefer your dries far more sparsely dressed. Mine are usually tied to ride high-gradient brookie streams, so I'm looking at never having fewer than 5-6 wraps of hackle on any fly.

 

Assuming a normal level of chaos at home today, I'll try to remember to pluck a few feathers from my various necks and saddles for comparison to show what I'm talking about. Maybe I've just been unlucky in the few Collins capes I've bought (though I doubt it, considering I spoke with Charlie and we went through a few necks together before he helped me decide on one).

 

And as I said, on the finished fly, the feathers all perform equally well...a fly tied with a Whiting pelt isn't going to float higher or longer than one tied with a Collins pelt...but at the vise, I've found that saddles are by far the easiest feathers to tie with, and given my judgment call of finding the Collins saddles unsuitable for my dry fly tying, it means that a I can only make a valid comparison between the neck feathers, and within that realm, the Whiting feathers had significantly longer usable sections on each feather. Not a deal breaker for the Collins birds, just comes with the territory.

[cheech 0]

 

What I would do is order ONE neck/saddle from Collins, take it to your local fly shop and compare it to the Whiting hackle there. If you like Collins' quality, you can always go back and buy more. If you come to the conclusion that you simply must have the Whiting, it will be right there.

 

 

We did exactly that in the link listed above. Collins capes were very very good and came in second place behind Whiting bronze. The saddle that came with the collins cape was not suitable for tying dry flies, and it wasn't even the same color as the cape.

[Cold 0]

 

The saddle that came with the collins cape was not suitable for tying dry flies, and it wasn't even the same color as the cape.

I think that last part is because Charlie does a lot of dye jobs, but he only dyes the capes. So in-process, it's: defeat the bird in single combat, remove the neck and saddle, toss the saddle in a pile for drying, sort the necks by grade and dye lot, dye necks, bag necks, throw a free, undyed saddle in each bag.

 

Fantastic saddle feathers, too, btw...I prefer them on buggers to Whiting's Bugger Packs.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

Cold, I agree, it does sound like our experiences with Collins saddles have been significantly different for sure. I would be curious to see some of the Collins saddle hackles that you have. I will try to remember to post up some pics of my own Collins saddle feathers, as well as some of the dries I've tied with them.

I suppose I should disclose that I tie mostly parachute style dries, so I can get away with lower quality dry fly hackle on those if I have to--however, I do tie some Catskill (collar-hackle) style dries as well, and I've tied plenty of those with Collins saddles as well.

 

As far as how I dress my dries--when doing a Catskill style fly it would be normal for me to use 5-6 turns of hackle, but rarely more than that. Michigan streams are pretty low-gradient, for the most part. (That's why I opt for parachutes more often than not.) With regard to the sizes of the dry flies that I tie, the vast majority of them are 12s or 14s, a few 16s and a precious few 18s. Nothing smaller. I do actually tie one or two dozen dries per year on #6-8 hooks for the Hex hatch, but the rest of my dries are normal sizes.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

Well, it seems that more than one person has had a different experience with Collins saddles than I have. Either I'm very bad at judging hackle quality, or Collins saddles quality have gone downhill in the past few years since I placed my last order. (See Cheech's post above.) Now I'm really curious to haul my Collins stuff out when I get home tonight and see if I'm just remembering it all wrong or what.

 

The last thing I ordered from Collins was a dyed-olive grizzly set in grade 2; that would have been in the spring/summer of 2014; I went out to Colorado that summer and wanted the hackle for Green Drakes. I used both the cape and saddle feathers to tie about 2 dozen flies total, and they all turned out fine. floated great and caught fish for me. The saddle was exactly the same color as the cape.

When I first called him to order the olive griz, he told me he had no more dyed sets around because he'd stopped dying feathers all together. He then called me back later and said he'd found an old set in the color I wanted when he was cleaning stuff out.

[ralphs007 0]

Thanks everyone for your help. I think I'm going to go with the Whiting introductory hackle pack. Seams like a descent price to start out with.

[Cold 0]

Okay, here we go: pictures.

 

Up top we have a Whiting Herbert Miner Pro Grade neck feather, in the #14 range. Feather is 7 7/8" long, and at my bench, I'd snip the bottom 3/8" off prior to tying it in...rest of the feather is totally usable, and all of it is the same size barbs.

 

Next one down is from a Collins Lt. Cree neck. Longest feather I could find in the same size range. Feather is 4 3/8" long, and at my bench, I'd snip the bottom 1" to get rid of the webby portion. The rest of the feather is totally usable, all at the same size.

 

Next one down is also from a Collins neck, this one is a dark dun grizzly. Again, the longest feather I could find in the #14 range. Feather is 3 13/16" long, and I'd remove the bottom 1 1/4" to get below the web and the taper. Rest of the feather is totally usable, though the taper is continuous throughout, meaning that the base is in the #12-14 range while the tip is in the #14-16 range. Not a deal-breaker, but not ideal either. Regardless, with about 2 1/2" usable length, you won't have to worry about using it on 2 different flies. just put it on a #14 hook and accept the varying barb length. Not likely to affect performance, just an aesthetic thing.

 

Next down is the longest non-all-web feather from the saddle that came with the Collins Lt. Cree. As we all know, there's plenty of really long feathers on a saddle that are all web. That's not a fair comparison when talking about dry fly tying. This was from the "prime" area on the saddle. Feather is 5 1/4" long, with the bottom 2 1/2" being webby. At the point where the web stops and stiffer fibers begin, you're looking at a #10 on my gauge, tapering down to a 14 over the next inch. That said, this is a great bugger feather, with the pronounced taper, stiff but not rigid barbs, and just a little web.

 

Last one on the bottom is a feather from the saddle that came with the dark dun grizzly Collins neck. Again, I pulled the nicest feather I could find. This one really surprised me. 7 1/8" long, I'd cut the bottom 3 if I needed to get rid of the web at the stem. At that point, you're in the #14 range, so I would say that this feather would be adequate for dry tying at that point forward. Pleasant surprise!

 

That being said though, keep in mind that I said this was the nicest feather (with respect to dry tying potential) that I could find.

 

Let's take a closer look at one of these Collins saddles, in this case the one that came with the Lt Cree...

 

 

Please kindly disregard the rest of the tying wreckage.

 

You can see that while there are definitely some more good feathers for dries on there, they're not the majority...you can ALSO see that this saddle is a treasure trove for warmwater tying.

 

What may not be so obvious is how short the feathers are at the top:

 

 

Still usable feathers, but not what you're expecting from a saddle for dries.

 

Again, not saying that this is a negative...I find saddles like this extremely usable...I'd just want a new buyer to know what they're getting to avoid disappointment if they're expecting long skinny dry saddle feathers.

 

Lastly, here's a saddle close up:

 

[Poopdeck 0]

For drys I tie a lot of comparadun so I don't use much hackle. I buy the whiting intro pack with grizzly, black and ginger and for my needs it's a few years worth of hackles which I largely use for saltwater stuff. Every now and again orvis sends me a 20 dollar off coupon which I use to buy the intro pack.