Production Tying...

[Johny Utah 0]

John P

 

If you have a hard time judging, then i would say yes. Also if you want to you can sit down and size them out and then just rubber band the base of the quills. This is very time consuming but if your just sitting around watching tv, give it a go, plus it will keep you out of that cold basement.

[gaeronf 0]

Cold basement? Thats where my whole "operation" is located...complete with a flat screen, surround sound, two reclining couches, fridge, etc. The nicest place in the house to hang out in. And there is heat!

[Bob Sc 0]

I lay out all the materials for 1 to 2 dozen, Prep time is time, but I don't have to keep picking something up if I lay it all out first. I also keep lead on bobbin spools. wrap it just like thread, break if off and wrap it down.

 

If you are sorting hackle, I use one of those long compartment boxes, say a 4 compartment box, 12 inches long for plastic worms. If you pick the wrong size than what you are tying, then you can put it in the correct size compartment. Pretty soon you'll have various colors in all sizes, say 12 thru 18.

 

I don't step tie, put the hook in the vise once and take it out once. Doesn't mean its right, just the way I do it.

 

Good topic on your part! Alot of good tyers around these parts.

 

Bob

[RagingBull 0]

One thing that I do when I have to tie 6 or more of the same pattern and size is, I break it down into steps. If it has weight, I do that first on all of them. Tails, hackle, body material other than dubbing etc. A lot of it is prepping before you start.

 

+1

 

that is the only way I can tie more than a couple of any pattern at a time. Break it down into easy steps, and do each one or two on all hooks you plan to use.

 

 

I am not in production tying by any means and i am actually relativly new to fly tying but this doesnt make sense to me. I understand the concept of production tying and how you want to pump out flies as effeciently as possible while maintaining qualitly. Now when you tie with this step process do you tie your thread off and then back on for each fly or do you have a bobbin for each fly? It seems to me that tying off and on along with removing the hook and placing it back in the vise would be counter productive would it not? I can see how tying each step at a time could help qualitly but i just cant see it helping production.

 

Looking at it from working in manufacturing for some time now, we have implemented "lean manufacturing" a couple years ago when the economy started going down the toilet. Basically we have re-organized every work station in the plant so that we could cut down on unneccesary movement, like in this situation keeping your scissors in your hand. Every time you have to pick up and lay down your scissors you are wasting movement, time. In this situation my plant manager would say that the customer is paying us X ammout of $ for this fly and is not going to pay us any more regardless of how many times we set our scissors down and picked them back up so why not add the least amount of movement as we can while still maintaining the quality that is required.

 

Maybe im wrong and that is a good possibility but the only way that i could see the step process to work is if it was like car manufacturing . Like if you had a team tying the flies, with a ton of vises (on pedistals) bobbins ext.... guy one would tie on lead, pass vise to guy to who would tie on tail, pass vise to guy 3 who would apply dubbing..............

 

Im not trying to step on anybodys toes on this matter its just that looking at it from a production standpoint i cant see how the step process could work for one guy tying on one vise..

[morfrost 0]

I tie a lot of Atlantic Salmon flies that require giving the head a few coats of lacquer.

 

I purchased a foam swimming pool noodle , the type kids use for playing in the swimming pool, and cut discs out of it. They look like foam hockey pucks. When I finish a fly I end with a whip finish and stick it into the edge of the puck, facing out. I usually put a dozen on each puck. When I've finished my tying session I pick up a puck with the 12 flies in it, stick a thick bodkin into the centre and holding it in one hand I apply head cement lacquer with the other. I only have to open and close the lacquer bottle once. There's lots of space to get at all sides of the fly, and in the case of Atlantic Salmon patterns, the flies stay oin the puck until they've had their 2 or 3 coats of lacquer for a nice shiny finish.

 

The foam material holds up well to being stuck with fish hooks. I've had these in use for at least 5 years, and they are still going strong.

 

These noodles are about 5 ft long and cost a couple of dollars. I bought a solid one. Some have holes in the centre. Those you could insert a dowel into the hole for a handle when you do the head cement

[Capt Bob LeMay 0]

I'm one of those production tyers (be careful what you wish for....) so I've learned a few small tricks to speed things up and make me a more accurate consistent tyer. In the end, though, what I'm selling is my labor (and there's only so many flies an individual can tie).

 

First thing, is consistency. If I generate a pattern or tie from a sample (I'm strictly saltwater and have great admiration for those working with smaller flies..) I save a copy of what I've come up with - and it's absolutely the best of the bunch... If tying a dozen or one hundred of a given pattern I'll tie one or two extra. When the run is finished completely and before the flies are packaged I line them all up and look at them critically... the absolutely best fly is saved and set aside as a "master pattern". That way whenever I get another order from a shop or individual for that pattern I can accurately reproduce it - that is in every sense, colors, proportions, amount of materials.... In some cases that means an exact copy of something I haven't done in 10 years or more if it's needed. It greatly speeds up my tying to have a sample right there on the bench that I'm tying to, particularly when cutting materials or sorting out tying in points. No need for anything other than a comparison before each portion is tied in, etc.

 

The next item for me is to reduce the amount of trimming after a wing or other materials are in place to as close to zero as possible. Here's how I do it... Each part of the fly is pre-cut before tying in place so accurately that no trimming is needed later. It takes a bit of practice to achieve but makes the time on each fly the shortest possible. If I were tying a tarpon fly for instance with six neck hackles for the tail, I'd carefully match three at a time (tips even, feather curve matched, then place those three between the fingers of my serviing hand and repeat with the next three. These two sides are then mated for tip ends and the entire six feathers are then cut at the same time with exactly the amount of feather to be tied in place so that the tail is complete without having to come back and trim anything again.... Since I'm tying larger patterns I don't need to tie body materials (chenille, diamond braid, etc.) as carefully as a freshwater tyer would... I start the materials a ways from the actual point where they need to be wrapped into place, then work them down the shank with thread and return the thread to the ending point. This way the time it takes to tie in a body (and the 'smoothness' for want of a better word) looks like it was tied in very carefully when the opposite is true.

 

I find it very helpful to reduce the various elements of a pattern to 'components'. If bead chain eyes are required I'll have cut more pairs than needed and have them is a small tub that's easy to take a pair at a time. Hooks will get the same treatment (in many cases I'll be filling an order for the same pattern in more than one size, say bonefish Clousers in size 6, 4, and 2). The tubs (I use old apples sauce individual serving containers) will stack together so that when I finish tying #6's the next tub is #4's, etc. Weedguards (whether mono or wire) will be ready to tie in and set in a standing tube so that I can pick out one at a time when needed. I only break down the actual tying of one fly into stages if it makes sense to do so (say tying in bead chain or lead eyes on all the hooks before beginning the rest of the pattern or tying in spreaders, that little puff of hair at the bend of most tarpon flies before everything else is done). The key thing is doing just one item something you can do so quickly that it will speed up the process if you do that item on every hook first....

 

Finishing flies can be time consuming (and I'm adding in "glue points" for lack of a better word as well). I use a lot of super glue in my tying but only in two small spots (and with as little of the glue as possible always). I prefer Krazy Glue because of it's small applicator and tip (I use the small plastic tube version). It stands in a holder on my bench and I use it like a pencil just touching the point where it's needed. The first point is after the first tailing materials are tied in place (the super glue locks them in place and usually prevents anything from turning as I tie the rest of the fly. The next and last time the glue is used is as a subtitute for head cement. I actually use the applicator as a tiny paint brush coating the head with a very thin coat (this not only glues the thread but also seals it since I'm going to be painting eyes in many cases). This last step in the tying process is only done when I have a dozen or more flies completed (and in some cases as many as a hundred...). As each head is completed and glued it's placed in a drying tub (I use the soft foam trays that many small vegetables come in these days for this purpose). Painting eyes for me is time consuming since the paint I use needs to dry for 24 hours between coats (you paint the background color one day, the pupil the next) and I have different sized painters for this purpose (see pics).... Once the eyes are dried (by the way without the sealing effect of the super glue you could never paint onto thread and get a satisfactory outcome - the paint would bleed into areas where you didn't want it...). The last finishing step for many of my patterns uses rod builders finish, Flex Coat. It goes on like honey and the painted item needs to rotate for two hours until the finish sets up. Instead of a foam wheel that most use for any type of epoxy I use short sections of fiberglass fishing rod blanks with cork rings mounted every five or six inches as drying rods. With four or five of them I can do two to four dozen per stick then hang each one when it comes off the rotisserie for 24 hours until the finish dries completely.... Once again I'm trying to reduce steps, shorten the time each one takes and come up with flies that really stand out (my bugs need to catch fishermen in the shop before they'll get a chance to see the water...).

 

The pics I've attached show the eye painting tools as well as the paint I'm using, drying tubs, flies laid out for final inspection before packaging, and flies on drying sticks. Hope this helps and provides some ideas.

 

Tight Lines

Bob LeMay

(954) 435-5666

[JSzymczyk 0]

One thing that I do when I have to tie 6 or more of the same pattern and size is, I break it down into steps. If it has weight, I do that first on all of them. Tails, hackle, body material other than dubbing etc. A lot of it is prepping before you start.

 

+1

 

that is the only way I can tie more than a couple of any pattern at a time. Break it down into easy steps, and do each one or two on all hooks you plan to use.

 

 

I am not in production tying by any means and i am actually relativly new to fly tying but this doesnt make sense to me. I understand the concept of production tying and how you want to pump out flies as effeciently as possible while maintaining qualitly. Now when you tie with this step process do you tie your thread off and then back on for each fly or do you have a bobbin for each fly? It seems to me that tying off and on along with removing the hook and placing it back in the vise would be counter productive would it not? I can see how tying each step at a time could help qualitly but i just cant see it helping production.

 

Looking at it from working in manufacturing for some time now, we have implemented "lean manufacturing" a couple years ago when the economy started going down the toilet. Basically we have re-organized every work station in the plant so that we could cut down on unneccesary movement, like in this situation keeping your scissors in your hand. Every time you have to pick up and lay down your scissors you are wasting movement, time. In this situation my plant manager would say that the customer is paying us X ammout of $ for this fly and is not going to pay us any more regardless of how many times we set our scissors down and picked them back up so why not add the least amount of movement as we can while still maintaining the quality that is required.

 

Maybe im wrong and that is a good possibility but the only way that i could see the step process to work is if it was like car manufacturing . Like if you had a team tying the flies, with a ton of vises (on pedistals) bobbins ext.... guy one would tie on lead, pass vise to guy to who would tie on tail, pass vise to guy 3 who would apply dubbing..............

 

Im not trying to step on anybodys toes on this matter its just that looking at it from a production standpoint i cant see how the step process could work for one guy tying on one vise..

 

You are not wrong at all . I'm Six-Sigma certified and would never agree that the extra processes of repeatedly taking a hook out of the vise and re-attaching thread over and over again makes sense from a strictly efficiency viewpoint. There is however a small gain in efficiency when doing only one step at a time over and over for several cycles--- a person gets "in the groove" if you know what I mean. When you're constantly switching gears so to speak, you lose some fluidity. I compare it to loading pistol cartridges on a single-stage press. If one was to do each cartridge from start to finish one at a time, it would take all day to load 50. Instead, do each step to all 50 before moving on to the next. Clean, resize/decap, clean primer pocket, trim(if needed), deburr, expand, prime, charge, seat, crimp, and throw in 4 or 5 inspections--- no it takes MUCH less time to do in batches. The huge, major, gigantic difference is that I don't tie just to see (or sell) how many I can make per hour,day, week, whatever. I tie only for my own personal enjoyment, and I do much better this way when I want to tie 10 or 15 of the same size/pattern.

 

If I was to apply all the WORK philosophies to my hobbies, my hobbies would become WORK.

 

I thank God every day for several things, one of which is that I'm not a production fly tyer!!! I know beyond any doubt my flies are as good or "better" than any I can buy from anywhere, so I'm good with that, and I don't need 100 of any one pattern or size, so it works for me.

 

[buggybob 0]

Capt. Bob has it nailed pretty well if you really want to get into production tying even if it's just for yourself. Preparation of materials and component parts before sitting down to tying is the real key. Even putting beads for beadheads on the hook and placing them on a magnetic strip will speed up your tying. I've been "blessed" with having to tie 100 dozen of a pattern, same size and same color at a time before. If you don't have everything sized out it "costs" money in time. By doing the prep work, I can tie 3 dozen wooly bugger style flies in 50 minutes.

[steelie 0]

Good Day,

 

Can't agree more with sizing your hackles ahead of time. A friend of mine has done a somewhat non-scientific study and showed he saved TONS of time sizing them ahead of time into sized bundles. Keep in mind however, that pretty much all hackle guages are sizing feathers for parachutes, so... the hackles are one size too big for traditionlly palmered flies. So a 14 on a hckle guage would be used on a size 12 for a traditional dry fly. !6 for 14 and so on. Just a little hint... ;-)

 

Steelie

[gaeronf 0]

Thank you so much, I will take that into account.

[Chuck CV 0]

I know this is a long post, but I thought it would get the information in front of you better than a link to my website, where it is taken from.

 

Hope it helps - feedback appreciated!

 

CHUCK'S TOP TEN TIPS FOR TERRIFIC FLIES

 

1. Brace your hands while cutting. Brace one hand against the vise, and brace the scissor hand against it. This can be just one finger leaning against the scissor blade as you cut. Makes for precise cuts. One of my favorite quotes is from Rene' Harrop: "A lot of what passes for masterful fly tying is merely judicious barbering."

 

2. Cement throughout the tying operation. Cement the thread foundation before you wrap a material on the fly when you tie in; cement each time you tie off. Use an applicator jar with a built-in needle. Result: Sturdier flies. The few extra seconds at the vise translates into dramatic increases in fishing time.

 

3. Set your bobbin tension light - so the thread pulls freely from the bobbin. Finger pressure on the spool can be added when needed. While the bobbin should not fall and flop around out of control because the tension is too loose, tying with too much tension slows your speed and does not allow for the thread control that produces masterful flies.

 

4. Try to tie a minimum of a dozen flies of a type before switching sizes or fly types. The last four in that dozen will go faster than the first two, and will be better flies, as your hands and eyes and mind get grooved into the process.

 

5. Count your wraps. If a nine-wrap body crowds everything else too close to the eye, go to eight on the next fly. Counting becomes reflexive after a while, and your flies will reveal a consistency and refinement in their appearance that is difficult to achieve without it.

 

6. Prepare your materials in advance. For example, after you've tied the first dry fly in a dozen to check the size, select and trim the hackles. Have your hooks pre-counted and ready at hand. I tie with some materials in my lap, some on my bench, and my tools within easy reach according to the sequence in which I use them. Think about these things as you tie, and develop your own system.

 

7. Select materials that are fly and size specific. For example, the whitetail deer hair I use for a CV wing is radically different from the hair I use for a Sculpin. Substitute freely as you need to, but if you set out to tie a batch of a favorite pattern, get the right stuff. Material selection is one of the most critical - and overlooked - aspects of fly tying.

 

8. About speed: Don't try to tie real fast. Speed is a natural by-product of repetition and economy of motion. All of the things I've said thus far add up to speed. I'll only add this: Keep your bobbin close to your work. You'll soon be counting three quick thread wraps instead of three wide, ranging, slow loops. The Rite Bobbin (see below) makes this easy, and fast.

 

9. Tie each fly from beginning to end. I've read articles at various times that suggest "staging" - that is, tying all of the bodies in a bunch, then going back to do the wings, etc. A number of great professional tyers from my generation (we saw commercial domestic tying replaced by quality overseas production) are still real "speed merchants" behind the vise, and none of us stage much of anything. We can all move on to the next step quicker than we can take the hook out of the vise and put it back in again. There are exceptions (I like to trim my Sculpin heads all in a bunch, outdoors, holding the flies downwind in a gentle breeze), but as a general practice, staging slows you down and inhibits tying flies that have continuity.

 

10. Proportion, proportion, proportion. You've heard it before. It still bears repeating. Pay attention to it in every fly you tie. Please remember that it has as much to do with the amount and texture of material used (finer stuff for smaller flies) as geometrical relationships. And please don't be afraid to alter the standards for proportion found in most fly tying books. Remember that natural insects don't have hook gapes. They have bodies and legs and wings. Go back to the original design and copy that, as you consider the relationship between wing length and body length, using the hook shank - not gape - as your guage. Also, consider utility. If you need more than the "allotted" 1/4 of a hook shank for the hackle collar on a caddis or a stone fly, use it! Soon you’ll develop your own style, and tie flies that are more effective, aesthetically pleasing, and satisfying to tie.

 

 

[tneal 0]

I know this is a long post, but I thought it would get the information in front of you better than a link to my website, where it is taken from.

 

Hope it helps - feedback appreciated!

 

CHUCK'S TOP TEN TIPS FOR TERRIFIC FLIES

 

1. Brace your hands while cutting. Brace one hand against the vise, and brace the scissor hand against it. This can be just one finger leaning against the scissor blade as you cut. Makes for precise cuts. One of my favorite quotes is from Rene' Harrop: "A lot of what passes for masterful fly tying is merely judicious barbering."

 

2. Cement throughout the tying operation. Cement the thread foundation before you wrap a material on the fly when you tie in; cement each time you tie off. Use an applicator jar with a built-in needle. Result: Sturdier flies. The few extra seconds at the vise translates into dramatic increases in fishing time.

 

3. Set your bobbin tension light - so the thread pulls freely from the bobbin. Finger pressure on the spool can be added when needed. While the bobbin should not fall and flop around out of control because the tension is too loose, tying with too much tension slows your speed and does not allow for the thread control that produces masterful flies.

 

4. Try to tie a minimum of a dozen flies of a type before switching sizes or fly types. The last four in that dozen will go faster than the first two, and will be better flies, as your hands and eyes and mind get grooved into the process.

 

5. Count your wraps. If a nine-wrap body crowds everything else too close to the eye, go to eight on the next fly. Counting becomes reflexive after a while, and your flies will reveal a consistency and refinement in their appearance that is difficult to achieve without it.

 

6. Prepare your materials in advance. For example, after you've tied the first dry fly in a dozen to check the size, select and trim the hackles. Have your hooks pre-counted and ready at hand. I tie with some materials in my lap, some on my bench, and my tools within easy reach according to the sequence in which I use them. Think about these things as you tie, and develop your own system.

 

7. Select materials that are fly and size specific. For example, the whitetail deer hair I use for a CV wing is radically different from the hair I use for a Sculpin. Substitute freely as you need to, but if you set out to tie a batch of a favorite pattern, get the right stuff. Material selection is one of the most critical - and overlooked - aspects of fly tying.

 

8. About speed: Don't try to tie real fast. Speed is a natural by-product of repetition and economy of motion. All of the things I've said thus far add up to speed. I'll only add this: Keep your bobbin close to your work. You'll soon be counting three quick thread wraps instead of three wide, ranging, slow loops. The Rite Bobbin (see below) makes this easy, and fast.

 

9. Tie each fly from beginning to end. I've read articles at various times that suggest "staging" - that is, tying all of the bodies in a bunch, then going back to do the wings, etc. A number of great professional tyers from my generation (we saw commercial domestic tying replaced by quality overseas production) are still real "speed merchants" behind the vise, and none of us stage much of anything. We can all move on to the next step quicker than we can take the hook out of the vise and put it back in again. There are exceptions (I like to trim my Sculpin heads all in a bunch, outdoors, holding the flies downwind in a gentle breeze), but as a general practice, staging slows you down and inhibits tying flies that have continuity.

 

10. Proportion, proportion, proportion. You've heard it before. It still bears repeating. Pay attention to it in every fly you tie. Please remember that it has as much to do with the amount and texture of material used (finer stuff for smaller flies) as geometrical relationships. And please don't be afraid to alter the standards for proportion found in most fly tying books. Remember that natural insects don't have hook gapes. They have bodies and legs and wings. Go back to the original design and copy that, as you consider the relationship between wing length and body length, using the hook shank - not gape - as your guage. Also, consider utility. If you need more than the "allotted" 1/4 of a hook shank for the hackle collar on a caddis or a stone fly, use it! Soon you’ll develop your own style, and tie flies that are more effective, aesthetically pleasing, and satisfying to tie.

Lots of good tips in these posts... I've been a commercial tier for about 30 years. I especially liked the remarks about consistency through using the hook shank as your basis for measuring material.. use it every time, no matter how proficient you become. Step tying, in my opinion, is literally a waste of time. Good idea, though, to set out material, especially hackle, for a number of flies beforehand.

[NJFlyMAn 0]

Chuck CV.. Great info & website.... :thumbsup:

[Bryan Wright 0]

Chuck CV I really liked your post. Great Tips :yahoo:

[bluegill576 0]

This has been a great thread guys thanks for all of you who shared tips.