Fly size to hook size

[Nick Williams 0]

I was out at my local river last week and was losing trout. After a few I realized that they were straightening out my hook. I was using a size 20 green Zebra Midge type fly, sort of my own creation, but they would just bend it out after a couple second of fighting. I did change flies several times so it wasn't just a bad hook as I had hoped.

 

So therein my question lies.. I have seen that people sometimes time the smaller dries and emergers on bigger size hooks so they will still have the hook gap. Is it possible to do that with nymphs and sorts? I will be back down to the river this week and wanted to explore that option just in case!

[perchjerker 0]

I doubt that hook gap had anything to do with it. It is most likely that the wire the hooks were made from is too light (too small in diameter). Try going to a heavier wire hook, same size, i.e., #20. Just like hook shank length, the wire diameter is also denoted by an "X". The box your hooks came in may have the wire size denoted. If so, you should be in good shape to get the wire size you need.

[phg 0]

While I basically agree with what Perchjerker said, I would also suggest looking at the scud hooks. They are 2x short 2x heavy, so go one increment larger to get the same shank length. In place of a regular size 20 nymph hook, try using a size 18 scud hook. For most of my smaller nymphs, this has been a better hook, both in shape and in strength. The wider gape doesn't hurt either....

[Piker20 0]

Or you could fish a more through actioned rod so the fish aren't placing so much pressure on the fly end. I know a new rod sounds a lot more than new hooks but I'd be worried if the fish are pulling through the rod hard enough to straighten your hook, will a heavier hook just pull out? Are you being a bit hard with the playing? Often the mellow rods are cheaper and sold as 'good for beginners'.

[flytire 0]

I have seen that people sometimes tie the smaller dries and emergers on bigger size hooks so they will still have the hook gap. Is it possible to do that with nymphs and sorts?

 

yes but i doubt it has anything to do with hook gap as noted above

 

there a fly patterns that are prefixed by "anorexic" as in "anorexic" hares ear etc that are tied on a normal length hook but the bodies are short and/or thin. see below

 

http://www.sportfish.co.uk/bardens-anorexic-hare-s-ear-nymph-size-12.html

 

http://www.danica.com/flytier/dwiltshire/_thumb/tn_once_away_anorexic.jpg

 

http://www.barracudaguiding.co.uk/AnorexicEmerger.htm

 

there is no tying commandment that states "thou shall use the entire hook shank" to tie a fly

[mikechell 0]

You pasted this on "fly fishing" forum too. Here's my reply from there:

If they are straightening the hook, you don't need more hook gap, you need lighter drag. Small flies, small tippets, lighter drag, longer fight ... more fun?

[Nick Williams 0]

The hook gap was just an example of a reason why some people have used a bigger sized hook for dries. Sorry, I should have worded that better.

 

So downsizing to a size 18 or 16 scud hook, as it was a size 20 scud hook, would do the job? Do I just make it shorter on the bigger hook?

[phg 0]

A scud hook is shorter. A size 18 scud has the same shank length as a size 20 standard hook. If you go on up to a size 16 scud, then, yes, you need to use a shorter body. I think, though, that you'll find the size 18 heavy wire scud to be adequate.

 

Good point on the drag, though. Don't try to horse the fish in. Let them tire themselves out, not to the point of exhaustion, but to where you can control them.

[SilverCreek 0]

The hook gap was just an example of a reason why some people have used a bigger sized hook for dries. Sorry, I should have worded that better.

 

So downsizing to a size 18 or 16 scud hook, as it was a size 20 scud hook, would do the job? Do I just make it shorter on the bigger hook?

 

My opinion is that with a midge larva pattern, tying a smaller pattern on a larger hook will NOT work. The fish will include the length of the hook as the length of the pattern. For small patterns the fish also include the eye of the hook into the pattern as the head of the fly. For a midge pattern I would use the 2XH hook that uses heavier wire.

 

After replying to a post about hook sizing on another BB, I sent a photo I used to Gary Borger. His blog post about hook sizing and including the eye of the hook in the length of small flies to match insect sizes is below.

 

Note that the hook eye adds 20 - 25% to the length of these size 18 length hooks. That is a significant difference in length as the fish perceives the pattern to be.

 

http://www.garyborger.com/2012/10/08/all-hooks-are-not-created-equal/

 

If you need a wider gap use a 2XS hook.

 

The photo below is the photo I sent Gary. The photo below shows 3 nominal size 18 hook shank lengths. Each ruler mark is 1/16 of an inch. The center hook was the standard size 18 dry fly hook in its day. It is a size 18 Mustad 94842, the up eye version of the standard 94840 that was the hook for millions of flies every year.

 

 

 

To the left is the TMC 921 size 16 that I use for small dry flies. The 921 is a 2XS 1XL hook so it has the shank length of a size 18 (it matches the length of the Mustad 18 exactly) but the gap of a size 16.

 

To the right is the size 18 TMC 2487 scud hook.

 

Most tiers think the gap of a scud hook is the way to get a wide gap. But note that the Tiemco 921 is actually wider than the Tiemco 2487.