Hook Eyes

[Trouser Trout 0]

Up-eye, down-eye, or straight-eye hooks? I know the difference between them, but was wondering if I should be using a certain one to tie certain flies.

[mikechell 0]

I'll try this one (Again, hotel boredom has me answering questions I don't know the answer to.)

 

Up-eye hooks: Used fro happy flies.

Down-eye hooks: Used for sad flies

Straight eye hooks: Can only be used for flies that do NOT use flamboyant colors, boa feathers or beads ... roadkill, kevlar thread and manly materials only !!!

[Piker20 0]

Mike hotel boredom? Thats what the channels past 100 are for??

 

Trouser Trout, in answer to you request, the up eyed hooks were traditional for dry flies. Some patterns still look good on that style of hook but in general the slightly downturned eye has been shown to provide better hooking and they seem to be the majority choice.

The straight hooks are often used on streamers where you are pulling a fly directly, but down turn still works well here.

[P.G. Beckett 0]

I cannot top Mike's answer!, but the turned up and turned down eye concept orignated long before anyone on this forum exsisted. Years before our time flies were snelled tied on to a leader or were pre-snelled with "gut". So they turned the eyes up or down so the fly would run directly straight with the leader. The Turle Knot which was later discovered uses the same principle and this practice of designing fly hooks has never change.

[SilverCreek 0]

I am going to bust a couple of myths about hook eye direction.

 

Myth 1 - The direction of the hook eye affects the angle of pull on the fly, and angle of pull will affect how well the fly "hooks" the fish.

 

Myth 2 - The direction of the hook eye affects the hooking gape. A down eye hook will have less hooking ability and should be avoided in small flies because it narrow the hooking gape.

 

Reality - The direction of the hook eye does not affect the angle of pull on the fly and makes very little difference in the ability of the fly to "hook" a fish.

 

Gary Borger on pg. 178 of Designing Trout Flies demonstrates why the angle of a hook eye has no effect on the angle of pull on the hook. The angle of pull is determined by where the rod tip is in relationship to the hook and not by the angle of the hook eye to the shank. For example, one would think that a down eye hook would cause the angle of pull to be "down" on the hook, but the angle of pull is actually up if the rod tip is above the level of the hook when the hook set occurs.

 

The slight offset of the hook eye provides no significant "lever" force to affect the angle of pull. Imagine the tip of a crowbar as the angled hook eye. When you push on the long end of the long end of the crow bar, the force of the push is magnified by the longer lever arm of the crow bar. But if you reverse the crow bar and push on the angled tip, you will have difficulty moving the long arm of the crow bar because the long lever arm is now working to reduce the force. The same thing occurs with an angled hook eye; there can be very little force generated by pulling on the short angled eye (short crow bar head) against the long shank (long arm of the crow bar) of the hook to move the hook point.

 

Some fishers also think that a down eye hook somehow "narrows" the hooking gap and negatively affects the hooking ability of the pattern. That is not true either. The gap is the distance between the hook shank and the point and is not determined by the direction of the eye. What narrows the hooking gap is the material that is tied onto the hook at the location of the gap.

 

Mustad has perpetrated this fallacy by writing that the hook eye position affects hooking.

 

"The position of the eye is an important factor when it comes to improving the hooking potential of artificial lures. “Straight” is the standard eye position. Here are three other variants:"

 

http://www.mustad.no/www2010/products/hooks/hook-anatomy

 

The reason Mustad says that is the "penetration angle" of a hook. If you place a hook agains a flat table top, a down eye hook has a shallower "penetration angle" due to the angle of the hook eye; and Mustad argues that a shallower angle is less likely to hook the fish.

 

I used to believe that penetration angle was important, but as I read more, I've changed my view. Therefore, I have some disagreement with what Mustad has written about how important the eye position is in hooking. I think any effect is very very minor. The reason is that hooking (penetration) angle does not stay constant.

 

Once the hook point penetrates flesh, the hook pulls on the flesh deforming it and simultaneously the hook rotates in line with the angle of pull of the line. The eye of the hook no longer rests nicely at a 90 degree angle to the flesh as it does on a table top.

 

The angle of pull on the shank and the hook point are pretty much equal when the hook eye does not rest on against a flat surface. I believe that this angle of pull drives the hook point further into the flesh at pretty much the same angle which is determined by the angle of pull on the eye rather than the angle of the eye of the hook.

 

If the hook point is sharp, hook eye position does not matter much. The hook point will enter the flesh regardless of the difference in hook eye position. Hooking gap and offset have a greater effect in my view because they affect the probability that any fish flesh comes to lie against the hook point.

 

Need more proof? Let's examine what actually happens when a fish takes a fly.

 

When the fish's mouth is closed on the fly, it doesn't matter how the eye of the hook is angled. There is no "mouth" or opening for the fly to lie at perpendicular to a flat table. The jaw is closed so the hook of the fly is flat to the upper and lower jaw. The fish has turns and the fly is pulled along inside the closed mouth. This is why the fish is most often hooked in the side of the mouth at the junction of the upper and lower jaw.

 

Experience tells us this where most of the flies hook the fish. And it doesn't matter whether the fish is hooked on a dry, a nymph or a streamer. It doesn't matter whether the hook eye is up, straight, or down. It doesn't matter whether the fish takes the fly head on like a dry or or from the side. So something else is going on.

 

When the fish closes its mouth on the fly, the fly rotates so that the fly lies flat or in a horizontal rather than in a vertical position. The hook point is directed sideways and when you strike, it lodges in the side of the mouth at junction of the upper and lower jaw. So the position of the hook eye makes little difference. This is also why an offset hook point works. The offset hook point juts out against the surface of the mouth, when the mouth is closed against the fly.

 

I think hook eye position is more about the aesthetics of the fly and the ease of tying the fly than any effectiveness in hooking.

[bigdewy 0]

All I can add is that I've been equally successful in losing nice fish with all three eye designs!!

[williamhj 0]

Personally I like down-turned eyes for parachute patterns. It seems easier to whip finish without trapping hackles.

[Piker20 0]

Reality - The direction of the hook eye does not affect the angle of pull on the fly and makes very little difference in the ability of the fly to "hook" a fish.

 

I think hook eye position is more about the aesthetics of the fly and the ease of tying the fly than any effectiveness in hooking.

 

I agree with you that for a retrieved fly/bait the angle of pull is not affected by the hooks eye. And I agree that overall your second statement sums up why people use the hooks they do.

 

BUT I have spent so many years bait fishing for carp and other species to know that hook shape can make a huge difference if the bait is sucked in while stationary or under no direct movement from our end. The guys who spend hours behind a bait waiting for one fish to take their bait nearly all use some form of bent shaft hook with a slightly inturned eye. The UK guys call them nailers.

These hooks bear an uncanny resembalence to Tiemco 200R and the various own label models. I am sure that when fishing nymphs or buzzers on dead drifts we hook a higher percentage on this style of hook as it will twist when a fish tries to blow it out from its mouth and catch hold. Straighter hooks, both shank and eye tend to be ejected out in a straight line and we never even know the fish was there. Korum have made some great underwater footage of fish taking baits and show the effect of the various hook styles on indication at the anglers end.

For the majority of fishing where we retrieve a bait and the fish pulls against us on biting I don't think it matters what metal we use but I am convinced that on occasion we should look at the metal, especially if fish a dropping or not being hooked.

[FlyFishin'Jam 0]

Sorry i don't have much to add but my coffee came out my nose reading Mike's comment!

[SilverCreek 0]

I think hook shape is very important. This is different from the angle of the hook eye.

 

I consider the hook as the skeleton on which we build the fly. It determines the shape of the fly, and shape is one criteria of the search pattern that a fish uses to decide whether an item is or is not "food."

 

The hook eye angle does not matter. However, the length of the eye should be considered as part of the body length of the fly on very small flies. As hooks get shorter, the hook eye become a great proportion of the body silhouette. So for small flies, I compensate by using a size smaller than the natural.

 

I sent Gary the photo below . I took it to illustrate the variation in hook sizes and shapes, and how hook shape influences hook sizing. The size 16 straight shank 2XS Tiemco 921 hook on the left has the same shank length as the size 18 straight shank Mustad 94842 in the center. To the right is the size 18 TMC 2487 scud hook. All of them should be size 18 length. Note how the TMC 2487 is shorter even considering the added length of the hook eye.

 

 

Gary used the photo to illustrate how the eyes of the hook on small hooks is a greater proportion of the "shank length" the fish sees.

 

http://www.garyborger.com/2012/10/08/all-hooks-are-not-created-equal/

[perchjerker 0]

If hook shape and eye orientation don't make any difference, why are 'circle' hooks the 'hot ticket' among saltwater fishermen? (PS: They came into existence long after Gary wrote his book.)

[SilverCreek 0]

I said hook shape is important. I think you misinterpreted what I wrote. Hook eye angle is not important.

 

By the way, circle hooks are not a recent design at all. In fact, they are prehistoric in design. Circle hooks have a point that is curve toward the shank so they do not hook up until the shank is out of the mouth and the point can then rotate to hook up. Early humans could bait the hook and walk away to check their lines later. The fish would swallow the baited hook and then hook itself as it swam away.

 

"The concept of a circle hook is almost as old as fishing itself. Archeologists have found ancient circle-style hooks made of reindeer horn in Japan, and similar designs of shell from Polynesia. In North America, Native Americans from the West Coast carved bone hooks that resemble some"

 

http://www.in-fisherman.com/2012/07/05/the-science-of-circle-hooks/

 

Since they are designed not to hook the gut of fish that swallows the bait, they are popular for C & R fishing while using bait. Because of the way they work, they are not popular for fly fishing. Left Kreh wrote about some streamers tied on circle hooks but they flopped.

 

Take a look at these early bone hooks. They are a circle hook design.

 

 

 

Here are ancient bone circle hooks and then a metal "J" hook.

 

 

Compare with a modern circle hook which is an adaptation of the ancient bone circle hooks.

 

[mikechell 0]

All I can add is that I've been equally successful in losing nice fish with all three eye designs!!

 

Hear, hear !!!

And I must add to my previous entry to this thread.

Piker ... after a few weeks in a hotel, even the channels above 100 tend to blur together. And Wife is starting to wonder where the $60.00 a night are going when she knows I am staying in the room.

Flyfishingjam ... I think I told you before, that coffee'll kill ya!!!

 

And finally, I agree with all the scientific information coming through on this thread. I also agree that the direction of the eye is just like most other fish catching equipment, to catch the angler, not the fish. But nothing can convince me that a hooker with upturned eyes is any better or worse than one with down turned or straight eyes.

 

 

 

[mikechell 0]

OH, those pictures of antique hooks reminds me of survival training. This is a hook that can be made in a few minutes from bone (Preferably) or wood. It's just a straight sharpened piece with a notch in the middle for line. When baited, the "hook" is inline with the line ... when swallowed, the "hook turns sideways and cannot come out. Remember, it's a survival technique, not a sport.

 

 

 

 

[perchjerker 0]

I think we have each misinterpreted the other. I had hoped to imply modern times; not archaeic.

 

Peace!

 

Frank