Making deer hair bass bugs durable

[TheCream 0]

 

As a regular bass bugger, here are my thoughts.

 

1) Yes I use Liquid Fusion and I love that stuff. I use it to coat the bellies of my bugs. You could use it to coat the whole thing if you wanted, I just coat the bellies to seal them. It does seem to keep them floating longer by keeping them from absorbing as much water. It also seems to make them pretty durable. The best part about it is how it dries. It sort of "sucks into" the hair, shrinking a little as it dries. Put it on thick, it will self level and cure flat to the bottom of the bug. On poppers, I also coat the faces but instead use a UV cure glue for the speed. I'll smear it into the face, which keeps it flat and uniform (UV Knot Sense is pretty tacky before curing), then hit it with a UV light. Liquid Fusion would not work as well for this since it takes longer to cure and the hair could become unruly before drying.

 

2) As for hair spinning on the shank, I do not glue in between each clump/bundle of hair and have not had this issue. I actually used a bass bug over the weekend that hadn't been used in at least a year. I caught two bass on it and missed a few more, the body of the bug never budged. All I do between bundles is half hitch and have not had heads rotate.

 

3) I really think the recipe for making a deer hair bug more durable is in the density of the bug. My earlier bugs with less dense hair didn't handle abuse that well. They also didn't float as well (for as long). Since I started getting my bodies much more dense, they float better, float longer, and handle blows better. I have some older sliders I tied a few years ago that have been used for multiple seasons and caught several bass, and they don't look much different than they did when they came off the vise.

 

4) And nice bug you posted. I dig those colors!

 

Cream -

 

1. thanks for the feedback on Liquid Fusion. I'm glad to hear that it works well on deer hair. I will definitely be picking some up and giving it a try.

2. & 3.I agree with you completely that making deer hair bugs as dense as possible goes a long way toward making them more buoyant and durable. That's been my experience as well--as I've gotten better at stacking and packing, and as I've begun using higher quality hair and better tools (GSP thread and the Fugly Packer), I have noticed that my bugs float higher and remain afloat longer, and that they hold up better too.

4. Thanks! I like those colors too. That bug was the result of my giving up on trying to make beautiful, symmetrical designs with 2 or 3 stacked colors a la Pat Cohen, and simply alternating two colors and letting them flare at random however they wanted to.

 

 

On the LF note, the best place I have found to buy it is Joann Fabric. It's usually $6 a bottle there, but you can find coupons easily online for Joann and usually get 20-30% off, if not more. Last time I was in my local fly shop, I saw LF on the shelf for $9 a bottle.

[flytire 0]

2) As for hair spinning on the shank, I do not glue in between each clump/bundle of hair and have not had this issue. I actually used a bass bug over the weekend that hadn't been used in at least a year. I caught two bass on it and missed a few more, the body of the bug never budged. All I do between bundles is half hitch and have not had heads rotate.

 

that kinda makes you wonder why everybody else has a problem

[Bryon Anderson 0]

2) As for hair spinning on the shank, I do not glue in between each clump/bundle of hair and have not had this issue. I actually used a bass bug over the weekend that hadn't been used in at least a year. I caught two bass on it and missed a few more, the body of the bug never budged. All I do between bundles is half hitch and have not had heads rotate.

 

that kinda makes you wonder why everybody else has a problem

That's a fair question. It might be because, in trying to make the bug as dense as possible, we're trying to pack on too much hair at one time. Pat Cohen in his videos uses enormous gobs of hair--so big he has to use a monster hair stacker to accommodate them--and states that this is how he gets his bugs so dense. There's no question that the more hair you can jam on there, the denser it will be, but I think the downside is that it's difficult to secure a gob of hair the diameter of 4 #2 pencils to the hook so that it doesn't budge, especially without using glue. The problem I run into is that, when I apply enough pressure to secure that big a bunch of hair, the GSP thread cuts through the hair on the outside of the bunch. If I use non-GSP (e.g. 210 denier nylon), it just breaks.

Back when spinning hair (instead of stacking) was the order of the day, the rule seemed to be never to use too large a bunch of hair at one time. Using that method, my bugs weren't as dense and didn't look as good, but the hair stayed where I put it.

As with most problems, the answer probably lies somewhere in the middle--big enough bunches of hair to make a decently dense bug, but not so big that they can't be compressed down to the hook shank without cutting through the outermost hairs.

[TheCream 0]

2) As for hair spinning on the shank, I do not glue in between each clump/bundle of hair and have not had this issue. I actually used a bass bug over the weekend that hadn't been used in at least a year. I caught two bass on it and missed a few more, the body of the bug never budged. All I do between bundles is half hitch and have not had heads rotate.

 

that kinda makes you wonder why everybody else has a problem

 

Things that make you go hmmm...

 

What hooks are other people using and having this issue? Would a smaller diameter, lighter wire hook be more prone to having the deer hair want to spin on the shank? I am using Gama B10S hooks and stacking the hair over a thread base (possibly another helping hand to avoid spinning heads), half hitches at each stage.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

 

I am using Gama B10S hooks and stacking the hair over a thread base (possibly another helping hand to avoid spinning heads), half hitches at each stage.

the thread base is probably a good idea...hadn't thought of that before, though I don't know why I didn't as it seems obvious now that you say it.

[cheech 0]

I have been biting my tongue on this thread...

 

If you are trying to get maximum durability, buoyancy, and firmness, Why not just tie with pre-formed foam heads? I tie with deer hair when I'm doing a display type fly, but I really have switched to foam for most fishing applications. Just my $.02

[TheCream 0]

I have been biting my tongue on this thread...

 

If you are trying to get maximum durability, buoyancy, and firmness, Why not just tie with pre-formed foam heads? I tie with deer hair when I'm doing a display type fly, but I really have switched to foam for most fishing applications. Just my $.02

 

Not to speak for others, but my reasoning is this: I like to feel like I tied something when I tie a fly. I have made tons of foam headed poppers. Simple paint schemes, stippled paint schemes, they work great and they are very durable. There's no question they are more durable, especially when the paint is sealed and protected with epoxy or a UV resin. I, personally, felt like it was more "arts and crafts" time than fly tying time. It was more pleasing to me to make something from materials and thread than by buying a store bought head or even making my own heads from balsa and basswood. It's easier, more durable, and a heck of a lot faster to use foam...but I prefer deer hair. Different strokes for different folks. I say whatever makes you happy, knock yourself out!

[mikechell 0]

There was another thread that brought up the difference between hard head flies and deer hair flies. I don't remember if it was on this site or another.

I believe the fish's sense of "hearing" or vibration detection is very refined. To compare it with ours, take a 2 by 4 board and a thickly twigged branch to the water. Hit the water with the board and listen to the smack and pop of it. Then do the same thing with the branch, and notice it makes completely different noises.

I think the fish "hear" a hard body popper differently than a deer hair in the same way. Some times, the loud splat of a hard body is exactly what attracts the hit. Sometimes the more ... squishy? ... sound of deer hair is needed.

[cheech 0]

There was another thread that brought up the difference between hard head flies and deer hair flies. I don't remember if it was on this site or another.

I believe the fish's sense of "hearing" or vibration detection is very refined. To compare it with ours, take a 2 by 4 board and a thickly twigged branch to the water. Hit the water with the board and listen to the smack and pop of it. Then do the same thing with the branch, and notice it makes completely different noises.

I think the fish "hear" a hard body popper differently than a deer hair in the same way. Some times, the loud splat of a hard body is exactly what attracts the hit. Sometimes the more ... squishy? ... sound of deer hair is needed.

I can see that, but most bass guys are striving to get the hair so tight that it's actually harder than even foam (a la Pat Cohen). When it's tied that way it actually becomes one solid hard piece of material.

[mikechell 0]

Agreed. If you're packing THAT tight ... or if you're coating your deer hair with Goop or the like.

[scgobbler 0]

When I was tying really heavily many years ago before kids and a good job...

 

I used a product called flex-ament. Not sure if its even still around or not. It had a rubbery feel to it once it set up and dried. I would add it to the face of my deer hair poppers.

 

The faces would be ever so lightly rubbery feeling, but then you could go back and trim them up and make them look really really sharp.

 

Anybody ever heard of it?

[Bryon Anderson 0]

 

I have been biting my tongue on this thread...

 

If you are trying to get maximum durability, buoyancy, and firmness, Why not just tie with pre-formed foam heads? I tie with deer hair when I'm doing a display type fly, but I really have switched to foam for most fishing applications. Just my $.02

 

Not to speak for others, but my reasoning is this: I like to feel like I tied something when I tie a fly. I have made tons of foam headed poppers. Simple paint schemes, stippled paint schemes, they work great and they are very durable. There's no question they are more durable, especially when the paint is sealed and protected with epoxy or a UV resin. I, personally, felt like it was more "arts and crafts" time than fly tying time. It was more pleasing to me to make something from materials and thread than by buying a store bought head or even making my own heads from balsa and basswood. It's easier, more durable, and a heck of a lot faster to use foam...but I prefer deer hair. Different strokes for different folks. I say whatever makes you happy, knock yourself out!

 

 

 

There was another thread that brought up the difference between hard head flies and deer hair flies. I don't remember if it was on this site or another.

I believe the fish's sense of "hearing" or vibration detection is very refined. To compare it with ours, take a 2 by 4 board and a thickly twigged branch to the water. Hit the water with the board and listen to the smack and pop of it. Then do the same thing with the branch, and notice it makes completely different noises.

I think the fish "hear" a hard body popper differently than a deer hair in the same way. Some times, the loud splat of a hard body is exactly what attracts the hit. Sometimes the more ... squishy? ... sound of deer hair is needed.

 

Cheech - I would have to agree with both TheCream and Mikechell. I do make soft foam poppers, and they are fun to color and garnish with tails and rubber legs etc., but it's not the same kind of satisfaction I get from constructing a deer hair fly. Also, as soon as you coat them with anything, even if it's just nail polish, they become heavier and that does make them smack the water harder than even a large deer hair bug, provided the hair bug isn't sealed with something.

This has been a very instructive thread for me, so I want to take this opportunity to thank everyone who's chimed in so far, and invite anyone else with thoughts on the matter to keep it going if you like.

As a result of what I've learned here, I've arrived at a point where I realize that a deer hair bug can only be made so "bulletproof" before it starts to lose the qualities that give it its effectiveness in the first place. I have switched to a couple of new products (Loc-

Tite and Liquid Fusion), and I've learned that simply laying down a thread base before stacking hair instead of trying to stack it on a bare hook goes a long way toward holding the hair in place. The last few bugs I've tied are packed tightly enough that they will float well for a reasonable amount of time (spontaneous submersions by fish notwithstanding ), and the hair will only rotate a little bit if I twist it with quite a bit of force. I coat the bottoms and the faces (if it's a popper) with adhesive and leave the top and sides untreated. They land with just enough "splat" to get the attention of the bass I fish for without freaking them out.

I'm satisfied. Thanks again folks -- you've proved once again that this is a great place for me to learn and improve my tying.

[Bruce Derington 0]

Yeah, the Cream gives good advice. I know Pat pretty well and he changes it up at times but for the most part he uses a couple different fixatives between each clump. I've seen him use head cement (my choice), and all his fishin bugs get a coat of CCG followed by CCG Hydro (which helps take tacky ness out of CCG). If you choose to use something like Zap a Gap you need to go light, that stuff really likes to 'wickup' the hair, leaving it very stiff, so go easy. Pats choice has worked well for me, but most my Deerhair creations dont see the water, I tie more than I fish LOL

[ditz2 0]

I have followed this thread from the get go. I have been tying hair bugs for 45+ years though I seldom fish them because I can't quit chasing Gills. ......I have found it interesting that it has not been mentioned that a bug that is well soaked will still fish and in fact sometimes work better than a fresh bug. A soaked bug has a much different sound when 'popped' than a freshly tied on bug. More of a gurgle. They also become more difficult to pick off the water and can get quite heavy before the excess water has been thrown off while in the air. I have never fished a bug that is as tightly packed as some of the beautiful bugs that get posted on this forum but I suspicion that they don't get as 'soaked' as the pitiful specimans that I tie. Especially if some kind of floatant is use on them before fishing. I am curious if anyone has used rain-x as a hair bug floatant and if it extended the float time.

 

The one good thing about hair bugs wetting out and needing changed is it requires one to tie more bugs and increases the fun.

[Bryon Anderson 0]

Ditz - you are quite right about the effectiveness of a hair bug being dramatically changed (and sometimes improved) by being partially waterlogged. In fact, probably the most effective bug that I tie and fish is one that I purposely don't pack too tightly, and to which I apply floatant only to the bottom of the hair body. The hair body is roughly bullet-shaped and it makes that gurgling sound that often draws a strike when the "pop" of a popper seems to put the fish off.

 

I have never tried Rain-X as a floatant, although that's an interesting idea. Someone recently told me that he soaks his bass bugs in liquid silicone then lets them dry for 24 hours before fishing, and that those bugs never waterlog. I'd like to try that, too.