Measuring how much deer hair to use

[pnptrapp 0]

One of the problems I"m having is trying to decide just how much hair to clip off my deer tail in one bundle. It's hard to tell just how much hair the person tying in the videos is using and I always seem to either get way too much or not nearly enough. Are there any tips or tricks that can help remedy this?

[JSzymczyk 0]

no, there are no tricks, and you will find that each tail is different too.... "just enough" from one tail will be just wrong from another tail. You have to guess how much waste there will be in each bundle you clip, waste being short hairs and fur (if any) and the extra long hairs which won't play well. Only experience or an experienced teacher will solve your problem.

 

It's one of those things which are really easy to see, but very hard to put into words.

 

Bucktails are one of the materials which have a HUGE variance in quality and characteristics. Some are wonderful, a lot are garbage, and the majority fall somewhere in between. Bucktails are like the dry fly hackle of 60 years ago, but nobody is selectively breeding deer to get the best quality tails!!

[mikechell 0]

Are you talking about bucktail or body hair for spinning?

Bucktail ... most people tend to use too much. Get a bundle that looks "right", then use about a third of that.

 

For spinning, the most common stated size is usually, "About the thickness of a No. 2 pencil. In other words, a regular wooden pencil or a little over 1/4 inch in diameter.

 

But experienced tiers might be using twice that amount.

 

If you can afford it, and you've got a good supply of natural deer hair, spin up some "bodies" that you aren't going to complete into flies. Try some with a little hair, cut it off. Do it again with more. Get as much hair as YOU can handle ... that will be the correct amount for you.

[Piker20 0]

Agree with both above. For deer hair for muddlers or sedge patterns etc I have found if the stack is too thick to easily fit in a small stacker it is too much for a size 14 or smaller. You can always add more materials but its always harder taking them off.

[utyer 0]

You state that your cutting your deer hair from the "deer tail." These are more often called "Buck Tails," since they are from the larger bucks. No matter what you call it, hair from the tails is most often used for streamers. For instance a typical Clouser Minnow will use 2 bundles of hair. After your tie in your bead chain or dumbbell eyes, the lighter (white) hair will be cut and tied in. Then the fly is either flipped over or the vise rotated so you can tie in the second bundle. BOTH these bundles should be rather sparse. NOT a pencil diameter, but more like 1/8 to 1/4 the diameter of a pencil. Too much hair on this pattern will add buoyancy, and the objective is to create a deeper sinking pattern.

 

For typical streamers using buck tail, each bundle should be about 1/8 the diameter of a pencil. If your just using ONE color hair, then a bit more could be alright. If your stacking 2 or 3 different bundles of buck tail into the streamer, then use less in each bundle.

 

The first pattern pictured is one I used to tie for a client. He wanted them very very sparse. I would use about 1/16 of a pencil diameter, and that was often too much. The Clouser pictured is a bit on the full side.

 

In tying buck tail streamers, too little hair is usually better than too much.

[mikechell 0]

Oh ... Utyer made me think of one of my own early problems. If you ARE spinning or stacking, don't use the hair from the tail. Most of this hair is not hollow and won't flair at all. It's not how much, it's just wrong type.

I went through quite a bit of bucktail, wondering what I was doing wrong when it didn't look like the pictures.

Gotta use the body hair for spinning and stacking.

[utyer 0]

Mike has made a good point. Buck tail is used for a lot of different patterns, but most (not all,) of the hair is not hollow, and will not flare or spin well. The very bottom center hair on many buck tails is somewhat hollow, and will flare a little, but even this small area is not well suited for making clipped hair bodies.

 

I like to use the base of the buck tail for Humpies, Wulffs, and stonefly wings.

 

If you are trying to flare or spin hair to make clipped hair bodies, then you want hair from the body of the deer. The belly hair is most often used since it is white, and will die into all sorts of colors. Hair from the flanks and the back strap will spin and will make good muddler heads. The natural tan flank will work well for spinning into bodies which will be trimmed to shape.

 

For stacking, and spinning, you will be using larger bundles of BODY hair. You should start out with a pencil sized bunch until you get the hang of it, and then you can try using larger bundles. When using body hair for stacking and or spinning, you MUST comb out the soft fine underfur first. There are combs sold just for this purpose, but any fine toothed comb will work.

 

Once the under fur is combed out, position the bundle across the shank at about a 45 degree angle. While holding the hair take 2 complete wraps, one over the other in the same spot. After the first two wraps you start to tighten up on the third wrap. As you complete the third wrap you can let go of the hair. Pull firmly straight down, and the hair should spin around the hook. If you want to keep this bundle on top, bottom, or side, hold the bundle firmly with your thumb as you pull. This will flare the hair on the side of the hook your not holding. After a couple more tight wraps, pull all the hair back and work your thread to the front of the bundle. Secure in the front with a half hitch. Compress the bundle of hair back while holding the bunch at the rear so it doesn't slip down the shank. Then add a second bundle, spin, compress and repeat as necessary.

 

There are a lot of videos on YouTube showing these techniques. Watch several. Spinning and stacking hair are advanced techniques, that require a fair amount of practice. Be sure to use a strong thread. While some people can get buy with 6/0, I would recommend 3/0 as a minimum, better still would be Danville flat waxed nylon, or gel spun thread.

[JSzymczyk 0]

unfortunately, Utyer, most of what you buy are not "Buck" tails. They're from whatever deer the processors take in and sell to the hide buyers. I've seen some tails in fly shops labeled "Prime Northern Large Bucktail" which were laughable, they had to come from a roadkill fawn in August. The OP asked about deer TAILS so that is what I figured she's talking about...

 

[ditz2 0]

The last two posters have covered it very well......When I am spinning deer body hair I get as big a bundle as I can comfortable hold between my thumb and fore finger, pull or comb out all the fine under fur, place it on the hook shank, put 3 light wraps of either 3/0 thread or preferably GSP 100 and then snug it down tight. The GSP is strong enough to cut the hair so not too tight. two wraps in front of the hair you just tied in and then a half hitch. Pack the hair bunch tight and if you want the finished bug to be firm put a nice sized drop of head cement right at the shank tie in point......Spinning is fun

[pnptrapp 0]

Wow! I learned a lot from the replies. Let me paraphrase to make sure I understand correctly.

 

Typically tails are used in the streamers, such as the clouser minnow. These should have 1/8 to a 1/4 of the thickness of a pencil as a reference for the amount of a bundle.

 

Body hair is used for stacking, or clipped hair bodies, and you should use about a pencil thickness for these, as a starting point. Figuring out how much I can handle.

 

 

 

I am talking about buck tails right now as I have been working on getting some nice Lefty and Clouser flies tied as Christmas gifts. But I'm glad that you guys told me about the body hair for the clipped hair bodies as that was something I was also interested in. (isn't that what you use to make the egg flies?)

 

 

So this also bring up another question then. When you're talking about stacking hair for spinning, what's the difference between that and stacking the hair for a streamer?

[mikechell 0]

Spinning deer hair ... the hair is allowed to rotate as it flares, creating a "ball" around the hook shank.

Stacking deer hair ... the hair is held in place so the flare is directional to the hook shank. This it how you would create spots on a deer hair frog, for example.

 

I am not sure what the term "stacking hair" means for streamers, unless it's the same thing, creating a flared hair head or something.

[Bugsy 0]

So this also bring up another question then. When you're talking about stacking hair for spinning, what's the difference between that and stacking the hair for a streamer?

The confusion comes from the name for the tool we know as a "hair stacker." Its purpose is to align the tips of hair, hence some refer to it as a "hair evener."

 

Stacking "hollow" body hair to form clipped hair bodies is a completely different use of the term.

[ditz2 0]

Egg flies are not generally tied with deer body hair. Usually yarn of some sort. There was a thread on eggs just a few days ago. Lots of videos on the net too.

[utyer 0]

For streamers, "stacking" refers to the layers of different color hair in the wing. When stacking multi colored wings on streamers, even LESS hair is used in each bundle. Each color would be placed one on top of the other, and tied in as a stack.

 

It is best to size the bundle of hair for the length you want, and then trim the butt ends. Hold the bundle at the tie in point, and place two loose and one tight wrap while holding the hair firmly in place. Then size and wrap each successive bundle the same way. Each bundle will be wrapped over the last, so just a few wraps on the first bundles. Only on the last bundle will you start to build up more wraps to form a nicely shaped head. Its a good idea to place a small drop of head cement after tying in each bundle. That way your next wraps of thread will force the cement down into the hair. The objective is to end up with all the hair for the wing on the top of the hook shank, with nice separation of the colors.

 

The head may have to be a bit larger when doing multiple bundles in one wing, but try to keep it as short as possible, and nicely tapered up onto the hair. Use a thin cement that will soak down through the thread into the hair. I use thinned flexible cement for my first coats, and then switch to nail polish if I want a shiny head.

[flytire 0]

"stacking" buck tail for a wing involves the process of evening the tips of the buck tail either by hand or with a tool called a hair stacker as follows