hooks Shape of hook eye

[pop-er-pa 0]

When choosing a hook for tying, what is the importance of the hook eye direction (up, down, or straight)?  Is there a general rule of thumb regarding fly type and hook eye shape? 

[utyer 0]

Down eye is the most common. but up-eye, and straight eyed hooks just fine for me.  I prefer an up-eye on soft hackles, and emerger patterns, and straight eye hooks on panfish, warmwater, and Saltwater patterns.  There can be all kinds of reasons why some people like one over another,  personally, I will use whatever I have at any given time.  

[pop-er-pa 0]

Thanks for the reply utyer.  I find myself a bit confused with all the different hook types!  Generally I tye with the hook reccomended, but I would like to know what movement is transmitted to the fly relative to hook eye shape.

[SilverCreek 0]

1 hour ago, pop-er-pa said:

When choosing a hook for tying, what is the importance of the hook eye direction (up, down, or straight)?  Is there a general rule of thumb regarding fly type and hook eye shape? 

 

9 minutes ago, pop-er-pa said:

Thanks for the reply utyer.  I find myself a bit confused with all the different hook types!  Generally I tye with the hook reccomended, but I would like to know what movement is transmitted to the fly relative to hook eye shape.

 

Unless you are going to tie a Turle knot to skate a fly, there are no differences in the hook eye position as to effectiveness in hooking the fish. You can still find articles that say up eye hooks should be used on small flies because the down eye narrows the hook eye but this is false.

As to the direction of pull on the fly being affected by the hook eye direction, that is also false. The hook eye will not effect how the fly move in response to the direction the line is pulling.

I'd like to discuss hooking angle and penetration angle because many fly fishers think they both depend on the position of the hook eye.

Hooking angle is the angle of pull on the hook by the leader at the hook set. The common perception is that an upward angle is best to drive the point into the fish because it rotates the hook point into the fish. If this is true then an up eye hook should give the best hooking angle. However, the angle of pull is not determined by the angle of the eye. It is determined by the relationship of the rod tip to the hook eye. For example, one would think that a down eye hook would cause the angle of pull to be "down" on the hook, but the angle of pull is actually up if the rod tip is above the level of the hook when the hook set occurs. See pg. 178 of Designing Trout Flies by Gary A. Borger. So eye angle has no effect on hooking angle. Since almost all hook sets occur when the rod tip is above the fly, all hooking angles are in an upward direction.

Penetration angle is the angle of the hook point as it penetrates the flesh of the fish. A steeper angle should drive the hook deeper. When you place an up eye hook against a flat surface, it will have a steeper angle with respect to the surface than the down or straight eye hook because the eye end of the hook rests on the surface a bit closer to the hook point.

But I believe this is a false analogy. I think any effect of the hook eye on penetration angle is very, very minor. The reason is that the penetration angle does not stay constant as the hook on flat surface illustration would suggest. Once the hook point penetrates flesh, the hook pulls on the flesh deforming it and simultaneously the hook rotates in line with the angle of pull of the line. The eye of the hook no longer rests nicely at a 90 degree angle to the flesh as it does on the flat surface.

The angle of pull on the shank and the hook point are pretty much equal when the hook eye does not rest on a flat surface. I believe that this angle of pull drives the hook point further into the flesh at pretty much the same penetration angle which is determined by the angle of pull on the eye rather than the angle of the eye on the hook.

 

[pop-er-pa 0]

34 minutes ago, SilverCreek said:

Designing Trout Flies

I am going to look for this book!  I really enjoy the technical aspects of the hobby, thanks for the help.

[redietz 0]

2 hours ago, SilverCreek said:

Unless you are going to tie a Turle knot to skate a fly, there are no differences in the hook eye position as to effectiveness in hooking the fish.

Turle loops are one case (and I still use the knot from time to time, it's not just for skating or maybe you meant a riffle hitch) where shape matters, but there are a few others.  If you're to tie a Thunder Creek style streamer, or if you're going to be pushing a hook eye through a popper body, you need a straight eye.  And jig style nymphs need a jig hook.  Loop eyes on salmon irons add weight.

Other than those few exceptions, I agree. It doesn't matter except for aesthetics.

[SilverCreek 0]

10 hours ago, pop-er-pa said:

I am going to look for this book!  I really enjoy the technical aspects of the hobby, thanks for the help.

Take a look at the reviews of "Designing Trout Flies" by purchasers on Amazon. All are 5/5 stars

https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews//0962839213/ref=acr_dpx_hist_5?ie=UTF8&filterByStar=five_star&reviewerType=all_reviews#reviews-filter-bar

You might be able to pick up a copy here:

https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Trout-Flies-Gary-Borger/dp/0962839213

 

[flytire 0]

offer removed

[Philly 0]

I took me a couple of years to realize that I could tie all my flies with straight eye hooks.  I ditched the down-eye hooks and haven't looked back.   To me using down eye hooks is part of the fly tying "tradition".  Possibly dating back to when flies were snelled to the leader.

[Straightarrow California 0]

While hooking the fish is the ultimate goal, it is only part of the equation.  As to hooking, all the discussion about angles and such are probably not really important when the fish clamps down on the hook thus possibly rolling it sideways.  Timing when setting alone is, in my opinion, more important and we really cannot even control this a lot unless seeing the fish up close as it bites.  More important to me is how the fly swims.  I like straight eye for helping flies swim straight in the water,  Up/down eye hooks tend to lever the fly in up/down angles.  Other factors do play, weight in the fly, current, retrieve, etc.  The construction of the fly to "lay level" as most food sources do naturally in the water, is what I strive for.  Fishing in current and deep in the water can require a heavily weighted fly that will be fished under tension, making it swim level.  A special note: on smaller flies the knot tied to the front can result in appearance of the fly being longer.  For this reason I was shown use an up or down eye hook run the line through the eye, tie a knot that secures to the head of the fly blending in the size of the fly.  This also is used to create "pull" from center of hook rather than the offset end of the eye of the hook.  Not really complicated, just need to think a bit.