Time to resolve this question .......once and forever

[Byron 0]

I would like the assistance of those who have been both tiers and fishermen for a fairly long time.

 

I would like to know if anyone, with significant experience, can document that flies tied in the " classical" style ride on hackle tips..........or they ride on their belly and the. Hackle fibers extending at 90 degrees from the hook shank.

 

This subject seems to be brought up occasionally, but books, videos, and articles continue to explain how such flies ride "high" on their hackle.

 

Most recently, in reading Mike Valla's book "Founding Flies", the clear impression is left that hackled flies do just that. How can such great books be written without addressing this basic question and explaining the actual float line of hackled dry flies??

 

Can we agree, one way or the other, on this most basic understandings of fly design and fly action on the water???

 

Thank you, in advance.

[FlaFly 0]

I've got a picture of just such a fly, don't know where I got the pic... it isn't one I tied. But maybe it'll help.

[rockworm 0]

The answer to your question depends upon the number of hackle tips which touch the water. Each hackle tip which touches the water can exert a small force upward because of the surface tension of the water. A light, heavily-hackled fly will ride high on its hackle tips. If you increase the weight of the fly (OR decrease the density of the collar) the fly will ride lower in the water. If the fly is very heavy the fly will sink no matter how heavily it is hackled.

[Byron 0]

I, and many others, have placed such flies in a container of water. Very, very shortly the hackle tips pierce the meniscus and the flies sink to belly depth.

 

Are you guys saying this doesn't happen?

 

Thanks

[oldtrout58 0]

I, and many others, have placed such flies in a container of water. Very, very shortly the hackle tips pierce the meniscus and the flies sink to belly depth.

 

Are you guys saying this doesn't happen?

 

Thanks

Nope, that never happens

[mikechell 0]

Can we agree, one way or the other, on this most basic understandings of fly design and fly action on the water???

 

Thank you, in advance.

I can agree that some light dry flies will float high on the hackle only. These are the flies that are properly cast to land as lightly on the water as possible.

Some flies will sink to the body if improperly smacked down, but if gently landed will float high and dry.

 

If you're asking if we can agree that they DON'T float high, then no.

[phg 0]

In my experience, the answer is "both." A newly tied on, thoroughly dry Catskill fly, and a thoroughly dry fly line and leader, will float high on the hackle tips. For the first few casts, you can skate it across the surface, and make it dance.

 

After a while, though, your line and leader begin adhering to the surface film, and the fly begins to absorb moisture as well, and is pulled down into the film. Even changing to a new, bone dry fly will only restore the action for a few casts. The judicious use of flotant does help, but is not a cure-all. I just adjust my technique to the conditions and fish accordingly.

[Ed Gallop 0]

A natural will get up on it's feet before flight but you are referring to artificial. I experimented with different patterns (traditional and trimmed hackle) because I know sparsely trimmed hackled flies float better and longer. Look up Paco Soria Ugly Fly article I wrote. The sharp points on hackle penetrated the water surface film where the blunt trimmed hackle floats longer. In fast flowing rapids a heavily hackled fly may be better but not so on smooth flowing water. Most all flies will eventually sink down to the body and if the water is dirty, will sink more quickly under the surface. Just like your fly line will if you don't keep it clean. Oh... I use the Ugly fly method with trimmed traditional hackle and they do float better than untrimmed. The inverted "V" shaped hackle also helps the fly land properly. Tie them and throw them on a table and they will ride high. Same on the water, and the single wing looks so natural you have to keep an eye on it or lose it in a hatch. A fly will roll on the water surface if landed properly, until it rest on the hackle. Just try it in a bowl of water at your tying bench. Floatant on the body will keep it on top longer after it sinks to the body. That is why I use a liquid floatant on all dries. It is okay for a fly to float on the body. It will not stay on the hackles long, no matter how lightly it hits the surface.

[shoebop 0]

I'm not sure why we need to settle this "once and forever". For me,at least, this is not that big of an issue. I think that if the fly sits flush in the water that is is a good thing. (consider the comparadun) To me it looks like an insect that is in trouble and therefore more appetizing to the fish. An easy meal. A fly that sits high is one that is likley to take flight any second and therefore might not be worth the effort. I may not be right but that is how I look at it. But, like PHG said, the longer you use a fly, the more likely it is to absorb water and have a harder time staying above the water membrane. The only time I am really concerned about it riding high is when I have a dropper attached. I need it to stay floating as an indicator as well as an attractor

Now to answer your question more precisely...The hackles are meant to float the fly. The more hackles, the better it floats! If the rest of the materials are water resistant, They will aid in keeping the fly drier longer and therefore floating longer.

[vicrider 0]

Answer to OP, NO.

[RickZieger 0]

I think it depends on what type of fly is being tied.

Do a Wulff wing and you need more wraps to keep the hackle tips on the surface.

Do a dry fly with nothing but hackle at the front and it does not take as many wraps to hold it up.

So my 2 cents is that it depends upon the fly.

Rick

[Crackaig 0]

Think about it! Traditional dry flies don't float! Which makes the answer no to both.

 

"Archimedes' principle indicates that the upward buoyant force that is exerted on a body immersed in a fluid, whether fully or partially submerged, is equal to the weight of the fluid that the body displaces."

 

Or as I was made to memorise it at school,

 

A body totally or partially immersed in a fluid experiences an up thrust equal to the weight of fluid displaced.

 

If the weight of fluid displaced is greater than the weight of the object it floats, if not it sinks. Even if the hackle points penetrate the surface only the minutest amount of water is displaced when a dry fly is on the surface. How can that tiny amount of water weigh more than the humping great big lump of steel you are using as a hook? Simply it doesn't. The conclusion is that dry flies do not, and can not, "float". I can say with absolute certainty that no traditional dry fly has ever floated.

 

Yes many of them remain on the surface, this is by standing on the meniscus. Not by floating.

 

Of course there are flies tied with materials like foam and deer hair that do float. However, they are not the subject here.

 

Presuming the fly is well balanced, and will land the way up that you want it to then the hackle points will hit the surface as the fly lands, initially the points that are at a slight angle to the surface will bend. so the side of the hackle barb hits the surface. Some, those nearer to straight on to the surface will penetrate it. If there is enough support to hold the fly there it will stand. if not it will continue to fall, As it falls hackle barbs that are nearer to parallel to the surface will contact the surface. These may support the fly, or they may not. At some point though the fly gains enough support to stand.

 

Then there is another problem to contend with. Water absorption, or wicking. This may make the fly fall further onto the surface and eventually sink.

 

Does this matter. Well my experience is that there is an important region. If your dry fly stands 1/4" or 3/16" above the surface makes no significant difference. What does make a difference is in the area tight at the surface. I've experienced times when fish will take a fly lying flat on the surface (Thorax dun with the hackle trimmed flat under the body), but will not take a fly with the body in the surface film (parachute fly). Maybe only 1/32" lower. Significantly lower in the surface though.

 

This has happened to me several times. when the higher floating flies are taken but not the lower. It has never happened the other way around. This has lead me to the point where I no longer use parachutes for dun imitations. (I do use them in other applications).

 

Cheers,

C.

[Byron 0]

I would be willing to offer a small prize for the first Catskill style hackled/winged fly, which, when dropped only a foot or so into a bowl of water and floats on its hackle tips (not body ) for 10 seconds or more.....

[Ed Gallop 0]

It all depends on the water you are fishing. I found flies float better and longer in slow runs if tied on light hooks (xtra fine) with sparse bodies and hackle. Less is better. But they are not good in rapids. I think the lightweight of the hook and the lack of body mass and hackle mass will cause the fly to float better and longer. The inverted "V" removed from the hackle and the pointed tips trimmed flat makes a big difference. But no mayfly pattern, short of using closed cell foam, will float for extended times. The fly will collect dirt from the surface film (not just get wet) and sink fast, just like fly lines will. I'd rather tie new flies than steam clean old flies. I have pulled dozens at one time off my wool patch and give them to someone I meet on the river. I tell them to clean the flies and, when dry, soak them with a liquid floatant for a fly as good if not better than new store bought one. Non tiers pay a lot for decent flies so why not help them out? They always appreciate it.

[Byron 0]

I'm only asking for 10 seconds in clear, flat water..........