Can't find the right hook

[Blackwater Virgil 0]

This is my first post here. I've been tying flies since I was about 12 or 13 and used a catfish hook, some of Mom's red sewing thread, a pipecleaner and some redish hair I stole from my red setter's tail to make a streamer. Covered the head with some of Mom's clear fingernail polish. Thus began my humble "career" in tying up things to catch fish with. About 50 years ago now, I used to love to fish for American Shad in my beloved Ogeechee River here in SE Ga. By far the best bait for them at the time was a little jig called the "Crippled Shrimp." It beat the old Barracuda shad spoon pretty handily, though both did catch fish. It also held them on the hook better because the jig rode hook up, and the only place in a shad's soft mouth that will hold a hook to any degree at all is in the roof of their mouths. Thus, an up-riding hook is essential if you want to actually get them to the boat, and even then it can be "iffy" if you try to horse them in.

 

When the crippled shrimp became unavailable due to the death of the disabled vet who made them, most folks went back to the old Barracuda spoon for them, but I'd read some articles in Field & Stream and/or Outdoor Life by an old writer named Larry Green who loved to fish for steelhead, and who published articles on flies for them. They're anadromous, like shad, and I figure they probably feed on similar prey in the open ocean when asea. One of the flies he liked and used to good effect was the old "Comet" pattern, with bead chain eyes. I thought this might look at least somewhat like the old crippled shrimp jig, with its bead head and oblong nickeled spinner body, if I used the bead chain for the head and mylar tubing for the body. A little yellow hair, feather fibers or marabou completed it, with the use of red thread to tie off the rear of the mylar, making a red tag, and the head. Danged if it didn't work, and work as well, if not possibly better, than the old crippled shrimp! Dad was dubious about using things that weren't "proven." He was an old 3-war Marine and liked to do things, "by the book," but after I whooped him pretty soundly one day, he finally said, "Gimme one'a them flies, boy; I want to catch some fish, too!" When a kid can please and impress a Dad like mine, that's a pretty humblingly proud day!

 

Shad are a picky and very moody fish. They'll bite most anything that's shiny - silver seems to usually beat gold, but you never really know what they're going to want. I've experimented with various colors and sizes, and used a variety of hooks, and not much seems to make a whole lot of difference, usually. They'll hit that old Comet pattern without the hackle at the neck as good as I've ever seen them hit anything. A number of friends have taken to it as well, and I keep them and anyone who wants them in good stock. All this leads to my singluar problem with it:

 

I can't find the right hook to tie them on now. I've heretofore been using primarily the Eagle Claw #455 spinnerbait hook, but in doing so, I have always had to bend the hook eye down in order for the weight of the large (3/16" dia.) bead chain eyes to turn it upside down so it rides hook up, so as to hook them in the tougher roof of their mouths as outlined above. The problem with this is that the latest batches of #455's I've gotten have left the eyes rather brittle, and more than half break when I try to bend them. They're pretty cheap hooks, but more than double in price with the breakage factor, and that has my lips kind'a pooched out, not to mention my concern about the weakened hook eye (due to the bending) possibly breaking off and losing some fine eating fish and roe. So .... I'm looking for a nickel finished standard or 1X short hook with a turned down eye and standard to 2x stout wire in sizes 4, 2 and 1. If they're biting, size doesn't seem to matter and the #1's have heavier wire and wider gap, so they penetrate deeper and provide more resistance to pulling out than smaller, narrower gapped and thinner wire hooks. When they're biting only occasionally, I'll go down to the #2's, or even to a #4, but that is about as small as I really want to use because of the pullout factor of their soft mouths. Better to leave them alone than to harelip them.

 

I've called Mustad and Eagle Claw, and neither has been able to put me onto a suitable hook. Does anyone here possibly know of a hook such as I describe? #1, 2 & 4, nickelel, std to 2XH wire, straight point (NOT beak style that tends to slide off and not hook them as deeply and securely), and std. to 1X short shank, with a turned down eye. If you can put me onto some, I'd be eternally grateful, and so would many of my friends. Thanks in advance for any advice or leads.

[mikechell 0]

Welcome to the site. I read your post ... I can't help you with your hook problem. I can't believe that, with all the hook companies out there, there isn't a satisfactory replacement. Others on this site will be able to assist you better.

 

Again, welcome to the site.

[Fisherboy0301 0]

Try looking at some of the new 60 degree jig hooks. These may be your answer, you won't have to bend them.

[Blackwater Virgil 0]

Thanks, guys. I've already tried some cad/tin plates salt water jig hooks, but their shanks are too long and they don't bite the cad/tin plated ones as well, and the difference is significant. As anyone who's tied for a while knows, the hook is the canvas on which we "paint" our "masterpieces," and the dimensions of the shad fly hook seem to be rather critical from what the fish are "telling" me. It really needs to be nickel and std to 1X short shank, and Aberdeen types are out because they just don't hold well in their soft mouths, or they'll sometimes bend, depending on how they're hooked. The Eagle Claw 455's work well, and they're made of softer (cheaper) steel and/or not heat treated, so they'll bend more easily if you get hung up, but are still strong enough to hold a big 5-6 lb. fish pretty darn well. It's a balancing act, of sorts, and the 455 EC hook is the best I've found so far. If they just made it with a turned down eye, it'd be nearly perfect, but I can't hold my breath until they make such a run of hooks, and can't afford to have such a run made. It's really frustrating to have "solved" a fishing problem, and then not be able to find the right hook. I've been using this little fly for about 50 years now, and the shad are in the river right now, so I'm rather antsy about finding the right hook. The best alternative I've found is the Mustad 3366G, gold plated sproat hook, but the biggest they make is a #4. and that's a bit smaller than I'd really like. If it's not available, then of course, it's just not available, but you WOULD tend to think that SOMEBODY out there makes something usable here. I just can't find one, and thought maybe some of you guys who keep up with this sort of stuff more avidly than I do might possibly know of such a hook. Thanks for the effort.

[Philly 0]

Does the hook have to be down eye? I dug out my shad flies to see what I tied them on. Looks like they were tied on Eagle Claw #254 Size 4, 2 and 1. A 3/16" bead chain should make the hook ride point up. All the patterns that I tie using dumbbell eye or bead chain are tied on straight eye hooks. I looked through a couple of my non-fly fishing catalogs and all the down eyed hooks meeting your description have an off-set point. Have you considered tying them on jig hooks? The shad darts the spin guys use around here are made on jig hooks.

[Fisherboy0301 0]

Try using double the amount of beadchain, like snipping off four beads instead of two. Or wrapping the shank with lead wire. Or use small/med dumbell eyes. These might keep you from having to bend the hook, while still riding hook up.

[Gramps50 0]

Try heating the eye with a lighter for a few seconds before bending it.

[ditz2 0]

A pic of the fly might help

[Blackwater Virgil 0]

Thanks for the suggestions, guys. Have tried jig hooks, and the shad don't take them as well. I like the idea of heating the eye before bending, Grandpa. A buddy suggested that to me today. Thought about using my soldering gun and touching it to the eye/shank junction, but it sure is a lot of trouble I'd like to avoid if I can. I've got some nickeled lead dumbell eyes coming, and they'll turn the fly hook up, I know, but the lighter fly with the bead chain eyes seems to be sucked deeper into the mouth when they hit, and thus, is really better if I want to get them to the boat. Added weight isn't the answer I want, but I may well wind up settling for it, I guess. Thanks for all suggestions. I didn't really expect to find just the right hook, when Mustad and Eagle Claw couldn't help, but thought someone here might possibly know of such a hook from one of the smaller makers. Will likely try the solder gun on the EC #455's. It's worked so well for so long, until I got into the new and improved ones that are stronger, but break when I try to turn the eyes down, I hate to switch unless I really have to. Those 3/16" bc eyes CAN turn a #1 455 over, but I have to build up the head more than I like to in order to give it the leverage to do so. Life's never quite easy, is it? And maybe for us fly tiers especially.

[mikechell 0]

Just a note about heat and temper/annealing.

If the hook you're bending needs to be heated, it's been tempered. When you heat it enough to make it easier to bend, you've annealed it and it will bend very easy without the heat from that point on. Only if you repeat the tempering process would you get a hook as strong as the original.

 

Might not matter at all on the average fish ... or at all. Just an FYI.

[tidewaterfly 0]

Virgil, I feel your pain! I've been tying almost as long as you have & shad are a favorite of mine as well. Unfortunately, we can't keep them here so it's catch & release only now and when I get the chance to chase them, it's often for the Hickory Shad, not the bigger American Shad. I use various hooks but have not had the issue you've been having. BTW, I discovered the Comet series too many years ago & adapted them for Shad. I've primarily used straight eye hooks in gold or nickel. Never needed to bend them, and usually attach my tippet with a no slip loop knot.

 

I use & have used many styles of hooks to tie on over the years, and still tie on a lot of hooks that are not sold as fly hooks. I know there was a hook at one time used for tying Steelhead flies such as you describe & it had a turned down eye & nickel finish. It was a stout hook, but I haven't seen them in many years. Likely a special run.

 

Time unfortunately changes everything too. If Mustad nor EC are making such hooks now, you may be hard pressed to find what you're looking for unless you should happen upon a vintage hook, such as you may find on Ebay. I'm sure you know you could look for years & never find it.

 

I also keep up on many styles & brands of hooks, although many of the older styles have been discontinued. The only one I know of is the old 3399 in gold, which is the same as the 3366 but has the down turned eye and like the 3366G every size except 4 has now been discontinued.

 

One suggestion I can make is to continue using the hook you have, don't bother bending them, except leave a short section of bare hook behind the hook eye & between the fly head, then snell knot your tippet to that bare section rather than tie to the hook eye. Do not pass the tippet through the hook eye. Simply snug it solid against the hook eye. If tied properly it should not slip. With the tippet on the inside of the hook ( assuming hook point up), you should get effectively the same as using the down turned eye. If you're familiar with a riffling hitch, you will understand what I mean as it would provide a similar situation.

[WVUontheFLY 0]

I think a model that would work for you is the mustad S70NP-BR. Also you could google the different hook manufactures and look through their hook catalogues to find what might work for you. That is what I did to find this hook.