"If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed to you"

[vicrider 0]

Well that poops on our parade.

[mikechell 0]

While I might not agree with everything Poopdeck says, I will back his refuting the "conspiracy theory" crowd. Money does NOT buy you a not guilty verdict. Anybody who believes the American Court System is that corrupt is, as you stated Vic, educated by TV shows and believes everything they show on that machine. (It was once labeled a "Boob Tube" for a reason) (PS - no, not because you got to see women's parts on it)

 

Money can buy you a good attorney who can find the loopholes and get you off on technicalities.

 

Also, defense attorney's, as Poopdeck stated, rarely make plea bargains. It's the prosecution that offers the plea deal. A public defense attorney might be quicker to push you to accept the deal, but it's ultimately your decision.

 

While "trips to Disney, cell phones and drug habits" don't qualify you to a Public Defense Attorney, business-home-family expenses might. While it would be foolish for a millionaire to NOT have an attorney, it is not impossible for a millionaire to qualify for a PDA.

[Mike West 0]

Never said you could buy a not guilty verdict but you can buy your way out of jail,probation,community service ect...depending on the crime of course.

 

And Poopdeck,

ridiculous? Ive done it twice

[Cold 0]

 

 

You can get court appointed lawyers if you can't afford an attorney not because you don't want to pay for it. As a taxpayer I am not responsible to pay your criminal defense attorney so you can have money for an iPhone, cable tv, fishing gear and steak dinners. You may have to prioritize your life and figure what is more important to you, your freedom or your sage. You cannot simply say I want a lawyer and you will get one. Millionaires are not entitled to court appointed attorneys. Yes the man can screw you without an attorney. If it were that simple to stay out of jail why would anybody hire an attorney. If you do not qualify for a public defender and you are told to come with an attorney and you don't, prepare to defend yourself with a court appointed attorney assigned only to explain the laws to you as you go about representing yourself. Or prepare to pay for that court appointed attorney anyway through something called court costs. Taxpayers are not compelled to pay or your attorney. You are and you will pay one way or the other as it should be.

That's all very nice, but do you have any actual source for this position? If so, how is it determined?

[Poopdeck 0]

Never said you could buy a not guilty verdict but you can buy your way out of jail,probation,community service ect...depending on the crime of course.

 

And Poopdeck,

ridiculous? Ive done it twice

 

 

 

You can get court appointed lawyers if you can't afford an attorney not because you don't want to pay for it. As a taxpayer I am not responsible to pay your criminal defense attorney so you can have money for an iPhone, cable tv, fishing gear and steak dinners. You may have to prioritize your life and figure what is more important to you, your freedom or your sage. You cannot simply say I want a lawyer and you will get one. Millionaires are not entitled to court appointed attorneys. Yes the man can screw you without an attorney. If it were that simple to stay out of jail why would anybody hire an attorney. If you do not qualify for a public defender and you are told to come with an attorney and you don't, prepare to defend yourself with a court appointed attorney assigned only to explain the laws to you as you go about representing yourself. Or prepare to pay for that court appointed attorney anyway through something called court costs. Taxpayers are not compelled to pay or your attorney. You are and you will pay one way or the other as it should be.

That's all very nice, but do you have any actual source for this position? If so, how is it determined?

Mike I would really like to hear the circumstances around these. Of course I understand your right to remain silent since you very well may have been part and parcel to a crime if this truly occurred and I perfectly understand you no wanting to share this information. I believe it's more likely that you are incorrectly interpreting what actually happened. You cannot buy your way out of jail or probation.

 

My source is 32 years in the business but not as an attorney or judge. My position is rooted in the the 6th amendment which mandates legal representation for INDIGENT people. The public defenders office carries out this mandate. You make application with them. If denied you can appeal by filling out a form through the clerk of courts office. The courts will review the filing and determine if you are INDIGENT or if you just don't want to pay. You will be required to show proof of income, investments, assets owned (like a house) as well as anything that may support a position that it would be a hardship to hire an attorney. The fact that you may have a 200 dollar family cell phone plan, a 300 dollar monthly cable bill is damn near proof enough that you can afford an attorney. Defense attorneys will and do set up payment plans. The key is the term INDIGENT. Unwillingness to pay is not protected under the 6th amendment.

 

I will also add that I have been a law abiding productive member of society my entire life as has been every member of my vast and extensive family. I am not ashamed to say that i respect and love the police, district attorneys and hanging judges. i don't mind defense attorneys either but i absolutely despise criminals. Do people really expect the law abiding to pay for the attorneys of those who commit crimes against us when that person has the ability to pay for his own defense?

[Mike West 0]

 

I believe it's more likely that you are incorrectly interpreting what actually happened. You cannot buy your way out of jail or probation.

Well let's put it this way DA was offering jail time,probation,community service and drug rehab. I wouldn't agree to it..going to jury trial then.

Went and talked to him and explained my situation,home life job ect. and I just can't agree to your terms. How much more money(fine) for no jail time,no probation,no community service and no drug rehab...he came back with a price(fine,court costs) unsupervised 6 month probation,no community service no rehab and deferred justification...I took it and paid.

 

Is that buying your way out of trouble or negotiating a plea? Done this twice and one time just flat out paid a judge a fine that was 4 times the normal fine to him directly in his office right past the county clerk...told me there would be no record of my arrest...he lied there is. But I didn't do any time,probation ect. Paid and went home.

 

You a lawyer?

Money talks in this country and the legal system needs the wheels greased and that grease is money.

[mikechell 0]

"I will also add that I have been a law abiding productive member of society my entire life as has been every member of my vast and extensive family. I am not ashamed to say that i respect and love the police, district attorneys and hanging judges."

 

I can definitely concur with this. Same history and sentiments from this family.

I could go on about the state of affairs, but it won't change the minds of the ... people ... who think cops shouldn't shoot someone who is resisting (you're a criminal, once you've started resisting).

 

No, I don't think my taxes should pay for the defense of someone who can afford it ... but I also don't think my taxes should pay for someone to sit at home and have more babies, but it does. In fact, there's a whole PLETHORA of things my taxes pay for that I do NOT agree with.

[Cold 0]

 

Never said you could buy a not guilty verdict but you can buy your way out of jail,probation,community service ect...depending on the crime of course.

 

And Poopdeck,

ridiculous? Ive done it twice

 

 

You can get court appointed lawyers if you can't afford an attorney not because you don't want to pay for it. As a taxpayer I am not responsible to pay your criminal defense attorney so you can have money for an iPhone, cable tv, fishing gear and steak dinners. You may have to prioritize your life and figure what is more important to you, your freedom or your sage. You cannot simply say I want a lawyer and you will get one. Millionaires are not entitled to court appointed attorneys. Yes the man can screw you without an attorney. If it were that simple to stay out of jail why would anybody hire an attorney. If you do not qualify for a public defender and you are told to come with an attorney and you don't, prepare to defend yourself with a court appointed attorney assigned only to explain the laws to you as you go about representing yourself. Or prepare to pay for that court appointed attorney anyway through something called court costs. Taxpayers are not compelled to pay or your attorney. You are and you will pay one way or the other as it should be.

That's all very nice, but do you have any actual source for this position? If so, how is it determined?

Mike I would really like to hear the circumstances around these. Of course I understand your right to remain silent since you very well may have been part and parcel to a crime if this truly occurred and I perfectly understand you no wanting to share this information. I believe it's more likely that you are incorrectly interpreting what actually happened. You cannot buy your way out of jail or probation.

 

My source is 32 years in the business but not as an attorney or judge. My position is rooted in the the 6th amendment which mandates legal representation for INDIGENT people. The public defenders office carries out this mandate. You make application with them. If denied you can appeal by filling out a form through the clerk of courts office. The courts will review the filing and determine if you are INDIGENT or if you just don't want to pay. You will be required to show proof of income, investments, assets owned (like a house) as well as anything that may support a position that it would be a hardship to hire an attorney. The fact that you may have a 200 dollar family cell phone plan, a 300 dollar monthly cable bill is damn near proof enough that you can afford an attorney. Defense attorneys will and do set up payment plans. The key is the term INDIGENT. Unwillingness to pay is not protected under the 6th amendment.

 

I will also add that I have been a law abiding productive member of society my entire life as has been every member of my vast and extensive family. I am not ashamed to say that i respect and love the police, district attorneys and hanging judges. i don't mind defense attorneys either but i absolutely despise criminals. Do people really expect the law abiding to pay for the attorneys of those who commit crimes against us when that person has the ability to pay for his own defense?

 

Sounds like you're very familiar with the way this works.

 

Can you show us some evidence showing what you're saying? As well as how the courts determine what you can afford?

[troutguy 0]

Cold not to be argumentative, but a simple Google search will bear out that everyone is not entitled to a lawyer. I don't think you would believe whatever they proffer.

 

Vicrider remember, when dealing with the police, you were brought into the station house with information and a pretty face. The police won't let you leave with both.

 

Lawyers and jury trials are regulated differently in every state and vary in different jusirdictions. In many states the rules regarding indigent defense counsel are promulgated by the chief judge or office of court administration. Who receives a free attorney is usually regulated based upon need. That level of income or net worth differs widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. Best is to Google the rules for your jurisdiction.

 

If you commit a minor offense and negotiate a plea quickly, you may be able to pay a higher fine to avoid other consequences. It all depends on the severity of the charge, the court, the prosecution, the arresting officer. In NY some jurisdictions would allow you to plead to "failure to obey a traffic control device" over speeding because the municipality got all the fine and did not have to split the fine with the state. You would pay a higher price, willingly because there were less points on your license. A busy assistant district attorney with a big stack of case files my be open to anything on the right day in court provided there is a conviction.

 

The court has much lattitude at times to assign counsel and other times because of limited resources will be very fiscally conservative with court appointed attorneys.

 

In South Carolina they charge you $40 to see if you are eligible for an atorney. https://www.sccid.sc.gov/resources/frequently-asked-questions

 

.............and yes I have a Juris Doctor from Pace University School of Law, I was a trial attorney in New York and I'm a retired police sergeant.

 

"In God we trust, all others are suspects."

[Poopdeck 0]

Mike it sounds like you successfully negotiated a plea for yourself. Don't forget there is a thing called judicial economy. The prosecutor is spending taxpayer money. He has a budget and limited resources such as manpower. Most are forced to negotiate deals for petty stuff because it would cost far more to prosecute you then the case is worth. As a taxpayer I appreciate not wasting money on say public drunks and would rather save as much of my resources as possible to launch burglers, robbers, rapists and murders. It has nothing to do with paying your way out of anything and more to do with the DA applying resources where the law abiding taxing paying public garners the most protection possible from the criminal element of society.

 

Cold, I'm not really sure what evidence your looking for. You will have to take my good word that I am not a criminal. As for who qualifies for court appointed counsel, its not difficult to understand and is very simple to determine. First you have to know the constitution guarantees this for indigent people. Or another of saying it is people who are beggars, penniless, derelict, destitute or poverty stricken.

 

Now, in keeping with the fly fishing theme of this forum, lets say you own 12 sage rods paired with top shelf orvis reels, two tweed jackets and the finest tweed hat collection on your side of the mississippi. In your driveway you have an F250 super duty with an accompanying 600 dollar a month loan payment and 100 dollar monthly insurance nut. Not to mention the Nissan murano your wife drives. You have a 300G house but still owe 50 G's on it that your paying 2 G's a month on. Your cell phone plan costs 250 a month and your cable bill is another 200 a month. That's 3250 a month in expenses but, after taxes, you only make 3300 a month so how can you afford an attorney. It's very simple since the constitution does not guarantee you an F250, a big house, iPhones, and HBO. You sell your F250 and use the 700 monthly savings to pay your monthly attorney nut. You can sell your house and move into an apartment. Or you keep your super duty and represent yourself.

 

Like I said before if you have a cell phone bill and a cable bill you can pay for your own attorney. Now you may not be able to pay for all three so you have a choice to make. This choice is not the definition of indigent.

 

Now lets say you live in a flop house where you rent a single room for 100 dollars a week, you have 5 kids with 4 different fathers two of whom are in jail themselves, the third died from an overdose and nobody knows where the forth is. You collect welfare and WIC for the 2 kids who live with you, you have no job or income with no explanation how you can pay for beer, cigerettes or your IPhone. You then qualify for a court appointed attorney because you are truly destitute and penniless, otherwise defined as indigent.

[Rocco 0]

In my life -- 74 years -- I have hired four lawyers, mostly for real estate matters. The fourth was for a DD charge that involved JD and me being an ass at grass a long time ago.

 

Two were disbarred -- one is serving serious time for embezzlement, drug-trafficking and he skated on a murder charge, and the other is out now after serving time for fraud -- and one committed suicide when his misdoings caught up with him. (#2 recommended that in essence I lie about my worth in order to qualify for a low interest mortgage --"It is the standard of the industry" he said. I refused as I was a bit smarter by then.) All were "pillars" of the community when they worked for me.

 

No lawyer wants to be on retainer to me anymore. My brother and my best friend from high school are lawyers but in another state so I'll just play darts with the phone book if ever it is needed.

 

Going into court w/o one is massively stupid as the odds are the other ring knockers workign against you will crucify you just for giggles and the good of the trade.

 

Rocco

[mikechell 0]

Since my tax money is ALREADY supporting this loser ...

"Now lets say you live in a flop house where you rent a single room for 100 dollars a week, you have 5 kids with 4 different fathers two of whom are in jail themselves, the third died from an overdose and nobody knows where the forth is. You collect welfare and WIC for the 2 kids who live with you, you have no job or income with no explanation how you can pay for beer, cigerettes or your IPhone. You then qualify for a court appointed attorney because you are truly destitute and penniless, otherwise defined as indigent."

... I don't think I should have to pay for their defense also.

 

I'd much rather help the guy save all his fly fishing equipment he paid for.

No, I don't need a lecture on the legal system, again. And I don't need any proselytizing on welfare or poor people's "plight" or minimum wage.

I am just venting my opinion. I don't make a lot of money, and I hate paying for people who don't work at all.

[Cold 0]

 

Cold not to be argumentative, but a simple Google search will bear out that everyone is not entitled to a lawyer. I don't think you would believe whatever they proffer.

Not to be argumentative, but I'm just asking how they determine who can and cannot afford a lawyer. Does it vary by state? Is it a percentage of the cost of living? Something based on tax records? A judgment call?

 

Obviously someone with direct experience would be likely to at least be able to explain it. If you don't have that experience, then I wasn't talking to you, so feel free to disregard.

[Mike West 0]

They ask you how much you make and what are your living expenditures/bills

[Cold 0]

They ask you how much you make and what are your living expenditures/bills

 

Thanks...but that's only half the equation...once you tell them, who/what determines whether you're "Free Lawyer Poor"?

 

This was the sort of thing I was looking for before, but everything I read either made no reference to income at all, or used the colloquial "if you cannot afford" language, which led me to believe that it applied to everyone, but that those who couldn't afford it were usually the only ones to make use of the provision...which is apparently not the case.