insects consuming materials

[flytire 0]

perchjerker usually recommends cloves (the spice) but i'm not really sure what it does vs moth balls. i hope he comes back on and explains the use of cloves. its gotta smell a whole lot better than moth balls which i dont want smelling up my tying materials or house. it would smell like grandmas closet or even grandma herself!

 

thanks in advance frank

 

norm

 

i do know when i smoked, my materials smelled like viceroy cigarettes

[Bugsy 0]

I'd look for something else in the vicinity acting as the source or attractant of the small flies you describe. As mentioned, they do sound like fruit flies or similar,...not like the pests we fear.

 

Perchjerker stated the two types of critters for concern: moths and small beetles. Google "dermestid beetles." Dermestid larvae are destructive beasts that will munch away at some natural materials. As I understand (not a professional on such matters), they get some nutrition from keratin proteins,...such as found in feathers, hair and fur.

 

My materials have never been infested or damaged by any critters. However, long ago, I did have a fly box wherein a dermestid larva had scored a buffet. A few flies were destroyed (one Wulff and one para-Adams included), their hackling chewed cleanly from tip to base over part of its circumference. I did find one live larva nestled at the base of the hackle, with a couple cast-off exoskeletal remains loose in the box. Since a larva will molt repeatedly during its development, it's possible these remains belonged to this sole specimen. It apparently favored high quality genetic hackle over anything else, since nothing other was damaged. My point here is that these insects are not only of concern to the fly tyer, they can seriously damage the boxed collection of flies belonging to the non-tying angler as well.

 

There are a variety of approaches to dealing with these critters. I think keeping materials stored properly in their poly bags and/or protective bins and drawers is a good start, as is not introducing suspect material to the collection without prior cleaning and/or quarantine. Also, I do not consume food at or near my tying area, as there's always the chance of bits or crumbs attracting something unwanted, and I always handle materials with clean hands. It's also not a bad idea to periodically sort through the bins of materials you infrequently use. Not only is it a good opportunity to check the condition of your materials, but my understanding is that these dermestid larvae, in particular, don't like to inhabit places that get disturbed occasionally.

 

I've used moth balls & crystals (both paradiclorobenzene) in the past for good measure. I've found them to be highly unpleasant and irritating, even to the point of promoting headaches. As for chemicals, PDB is probably the most trusted to deter these insects and destroy eggs and larvae, and I would probably resort to its use again should I be so unfortunate as to have an infestation. But for items that may only be in doubt, such as a squirrel tail loose in the bin for years, a good washing and freezing provide some peace of mind.

[rockworm 0]

Bugsy makes a good point about paradichlorobenzene- the fumes are toxic. They not only deter pests, they will outright kill them! You don't want to leave the crystals or balls exposed to the air as they will evaporate fairly quickly filling your workspace with an unpleasant smell and possibly presenting a health hazard. However, when kept in a sealed ziplock (or jar) evaporation is extremely slow. I believe once the air inside the bag becomes saturated evaporation ceases. For this reason I squeeze as much air out as possible before zipping up the bag.

[Bugsy 0]

rockworm, I never considered the possibility of no further evaporation beyond a saturation point. I guess squeezing the air out of resealable bags would cause the crystals to last longer? My mind wants to think that a bit of air volume in the bag would be beneficial for promoting the circulation of the chemical throughout the materials, but I'm sure the fumes can do their work in the tightest spaces. Regardless, PDB is awful stuff (to me, anyhow), and I'll happily avoid frequent use.

[JSzymczyk 0]

We have had several long and detailed discussions on here about this subject. Dermestids (also called "carpet beetles" and "museum beetles") are far more common than clothes moths. Any product such as cedar oil, clove oil, cedar planks, etc WILL NOT KILL these pests. Freeze-Thaw cycles and microwaving are questionable. There is a very real danger of damaging your expensive materials by microwaving too long and too short may not kill everything. Freezing and thawing cycle times are not absolute and also may not get them all, unless you live in the interior of Alaska and can get your stuff outside in negative 60 or so. Chemical warfare is the best way to exterminate everything if you have an infestation. Paradichlorobenzene and DiChlorVos KILL all life stages of insect pests in an enclosed area. Naphthalene moth balls/crystals/flakes will NOT KILL ova and some pupae.

 

I come at this from the angle of being a long-time insect collector as well as fly tyer and have many storage drawers of butterfly and moth specimens which are largely irreplaceable. The exact same pests which damage insect collections damage fly tying materials. Insect collectors are fanatical about protecting specimens from dermestid damage. I have had dermestids damage a few of mine, thankfully nothing too special. I have seen other collections get damaged to the point of causing grown men cry. Imagine going through a once-in-a-lifetime excursion and collecting one or two exceedingly hard-to-get specimens, taking the painful time to curate them perfectly, then some time later finding they have been chewed into dust by dermestids. It's on a whole different level than finding a few chicken feathers or squirrel tails with damage.

[perchjerker 0]

As the fabric moth seems to be the most common 'culprit' is why I did not name the beetle. Bugsy nailed it; a dermestid! Back in them old timey days, most all 'natural science' museums kept a very active dermested beetle colony going somewhere deep down in the bowels of the facility for the sole purpose of putting animal skeletons into for the beetles to eat all of the flesh off of, leaving a nice clean, white skeleton for display mounting purposes. They eat most anything dead!

 

Agreed, one will on rare occasion get an 'infested ' package of feathers, etc., but not very likely from the large established supply companies, i.e., Wapsi, Umpqua, Rumpf, etc. There is much greater likelihood from the smaller packagers. It just makes fiscal sense.

 

Now for the cloves! There is apparently something in the oils of the spice that is noxious to the moths, and perhaps also the dermesteds. I got my 'education' about them after noticing, my first time in, that every fly bin in a well know Rocky Mtn. area fly shop had a clove or two in it. (Smelled good, too!) I asked the proprietor about the "Why". His response was to the effect, 'to keep the damned bugs from eating them', and with the admonishment to ALWAYS keep some in your fly boxes too! I have since seen this method of 'bug' control employed by other shop owners. My initial 'exposure' was over 30 years ago. The guy made such an impression on me that I beat a hasty trail to my local supermarket as soon as I got home and bought some fresh ones. I have kept them among my materials and in my boxes to this day without any bug problems.

 

Sometime later after my initial 'introduction' to the practice, there was an article in one of the popular fly fishing magazines about 'home remedy' insect repellants, and cloves were mentioned as being beneficial. There were also two or three mixtures of different spices that also supposedly worked. As I was already into the cloves thing, I did not try any of the mixtures.

 

Putting my biologist's hat on,I will also address a couple of other things that have been touched on, or at least, should be.

 

The first of these has to do with the life cycles of the bugs we have been talking about, and the use of "pesticides". As both the moths and dermesteds have a pupal stage, the products we have been talking about are useless both against the pupal stages, and the eggs. They are useful ONLY against the larval(worm) and adult stages. Both the 'egg shell' and 'pupal membrane' are apparently impervious to gases, thus their ineffectiveness.

 

The second has to do with the 'bugs' found on 'freshly' killed wild animals. All of them that 'live' on the animal are parasites that feed on the blood of the animal, and depend upon the body temperature of the host animal to keep them warm. Once the blood supply disappears and the carcass begins to cool off; them that can "get the Hell out of Dodge". The remainder either die of the cold, or starvation, or both. They pose no threat to the well being of the hair or feathers, which ever the case may be, of the animal. All of the "freeze it/nuke it" recommendations are worthless, as these parasites do not normally lay their eggs on the host animal. Hence, there is nothing there to kill by freezing/nuking! Simply prepare the skin according to standard taxidermists methods, then wash it to remove any dried blood, and dry it according to standard techniques.

 

For those interested in preparing bird and animal skins, quit trying to re-invent the wheel. The Natural History Museums solved many of the problems centuries ago, and the taxidermists have added to this wealth of knowledge; and it can all be found in numerous books on the subjects---museum preparation of biological specimens and taxidermy.

 

GOOD READING!!!

 

Frank

 

PS: The larvae of these bugs can, and DO, eat through zip-lok, and other, plastic bags!

[mybadhabit 0]

I know from personal experience that moths in whatever form can eat thru plastic to get to nice wool pants, I need them for a wedding and kept them in plastic in fear of moths, and found them full of holes even though they were sealed in a plastic bag. Not what I wanted to see on short notice, the pants were riddled with holes and so was the bag.

 

Blane

[oldtrout58 0]

I would recommend storing some paradichlorobenzene with your natural materials as it sound like you have an infestation. At the very least I'd toss in a flea collar or something. You may wish to wash all of your natural stuff before you lose too much.

[mikechell 0]

Let's first clear the air about the 'bugs' that damage fly tying materials. They damage ONLY natural materials; not the synthetics. Moreover, they are the very same bugs that eat cotton, wool, silk, or other natural fibers in clothing. Thus, the same steps that are taken to protect clothing hanging in a closet will do the trick; i.e., mothballs, cedar planks, shavings, etc, whole cloves, to name a few.

 

If what you have are fruit flies---NO PROBLEM! There are two bugs of concern; one a moth, which is the most common, and the other a small beetle. Moths are readily recognizable as such by the way they fly, and their 'delta' (triangular) shape when not flying. They are typically various shades of mottled gray, with the occasion white area thrown in for good measure. Google "Fabric Moth" for pictures.

 

While agreeing with you on all you say, Perch ... I have to slightly debate the statement that only cloth/natural material eating bugs will be problematic. Since most of our materials are still attached to parts of skin, all manner of bugs can be involved. If the "meat" of the skin or hide is allowed to get wet, then one might also get flies and their offspring, maggots. I don't know if there are any flies that eat meat products and are as small as fruit flies, but couldn't that be possible?

[JSzymczyk 0]

 

The first of these has to do with the life cycles of the bugs we have been talking about, and the use of "pesticides". As both the moths and dermesteds have a pupal stage, the products we have been talking about are useless both against the pupal stages, and the eggs. They are useful ONLY against the larval(worm) and adult stages. Both the 'egg shell' and 'pupal membrane' are apparently impervious to gases, thus their ineffectiveness.

 

 

 

Frank, I must disagree here. Paradichlorobenzene and DiChlorvos, as well as Ethyl Acetate vapors will kill ova and pupae as well as larvae and adults. The concentrations probably need to be slightly higher, but nothing that can't be easily attained in a closed container.

 

Pupae of every insect (probably every insect...) breathe through spiracles in the exoskeleton the same as adults and larvae although not at the same rate. The ovum "shell" properly named the chorion, has microscopic pores called aeropyles which enable the embryo inside to take in oxygen and whatever other gases are present.

 

This is practical knowledge as well as book knowledge, I've seen it done on several occasions.

 

Entomology is great fun, if the other half of my brain worked I would have made a career of it.

 

Joel

 

(BTW the dermestids which are kept for stripping tissue from bones are related, but not the same as the dermestids which eat our collections. )

[mvendon 0]

Just to add that they now make scented Para moth balls, so if you don't like the smell of the old school type, these are another option. Each ball has a scent packet around it. They come in lavendar, cedar, fresh linen, and one other scent. Google Enoz scented mothballs to find where they sell them.

 

Regards,

Mark

[Piker20 0]

Well I just layered my drawers with some diatomaceous Earth and a tiny but in the ziplock bags. It is a food grade product, (you can buy non food grade like they use in swimming pool filters DONT use this where you might breath it in.) it kills all creepies and has no odour or taste and is safe in the aquatic environment.

[perchjerker 0]

mikechell...

 

I personally do not know of anyone who would store natural materials on 'green' hides/skins, as this is what you are referring to when you mention flesh, fat, etc still being attached to the 'skin'. Moreover, how many tiers permit their stored materials to get wet? Therefore, to my way of thinking, your question/points are moot.

 

However, to answer your question, based on the criteria you listed; yes, a green untreated hide can, and will, attract flies who will deposit their eggs, typically on the flesh side, as that is where the 'first food' for the hatchling maggot is to be found, and these maggots can devour everything. Such a hide/skin is also subject to dermested beetle infestation with similarly disastrous consequences. I do not know of a 'carrion' fly, i.e., one whose larvae feed on decomposing flesh, that is anywhere near as small as a fruitfly; though there may be some in other parts of the world.

 

Joel...

 

Your points are all well made. However, as a graduate student pursuing my advanced degrees in zoology, it was always maintained that things like PDB, either as Moth Balls or as crystals. would NOT kill the ova and pupae. (I am aware that there are newer chemicals on the market for which the claim is made that they do kill the eggs and pupae.) They were put into specimen cases as a PREVENTATIVE; not as an INSECTICIDE. Carbon dusulfide is a GREAT insecticide, as well as VERMIFUGE; but who can tolerate the stench for very long? And you darned sure DO NOT want to get it on yourself!!! You might as well apply a white-hot poker to the area!

 

I am fully aware of the fact that there are several species of dermestids, and that the one used to eat the 'flesh' off of bones, and the ones that eat our fur and feathers are not the same. If I led one to believe that they are the same, I apologize; but, I don't think my statement was misleading, taken in context. I am also familiar with the biological terminology, but don't feel that the majority of those here would have such knowledge, so, I try to stick with words in common use and having a common understanding. I do appreciate your input though.

 

As a graduate student in zoology, the entomology grad students 'down the hall' were know to us as the "Spray and Pray Boys".

 

I think an apt summation of this thread is that there are any number of things that on can use to keep the 'nasties' from devouring their stored materials, and the RIGHT ONE is that which is easiest and most convenient for them. It is a matter of PREVENTION! NOT "CURE"!!

 

There is no real need for 'freezing' or 'nuking'; the museums don't do this, nor do the taxidermists. The taxidermist may freeze for preservation if he is 'snowed under' and can't get to a specimen right away; but it is not typically for protecting the fur/feathers from being devoured by an insect pest. Plastic bags, in and of themselves, are no real protector, as they can be eaten through; much like many burglar systems, they are simply a deterrent. If you have vintage materials still packaged in the old 'glassine' packages, they are extremely vulnerable to being eaten into, in my own personal experience.

 

Regards,

Frank

[JSzymczyk 0]

All well and good Frank. I will stand firmly by my observations, knowledge, education, and experience in saying an infestation can be eliminated with PDB exposure, and it will kill all life stages of insects if given enough time.

 

I don't see a need to dumb down a conversation. If it's worthy of discussion, it's worthy of correct terminology (which is why I will never refer to a fly rod as a "pole" or a "stick"... God I hate when someone calls a fly rod a STICK!).

 

I've never been accused of being the sharpest knife in the drawer, but there are a few areas where I can hold my own.

[perchjerker 0]

Joel...

 

I likewise stand by my comments.

 

One of the wisest gems of wisdom that I was given by my committee chairman when I started writing my MS thesis was: "Be sure to write it in terms that any high school student who might want to do something similar for a Science Fair project can read it and understand it; and duplicate it." The point is that one should never speak, or write, over the heads of anyone; as you never know who will hear, or read, it. This is, in fact, often a major concern among the editors of the various and sundry Scientific Journals, believe it or not. The then Editor of the American Journal of Parasitology did an editorial piece in that Journal back in the early 1960's on this very subject. He cited an example that was truly hilarious, but very clearly made the point---You use the terminology that is best suited for your audience. Doing so is NOT "dumbing down". The attorneys have their funny digs at their own long winded exhortations that more often than not, can be stated in vastly fewer words, and make as much, if not more, sense than their lengthy prose do.

 

The advice of my MS (and PhD) committee chairman has stood me well in hand over the past 50 years; both in my day-to-day dealings with both my superiors and my subordinates, as well as an expert witness in numerous court proceedings.

 

Thus, I rest my case!

 

Cheers,

Frank