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Fly Tying
Mark Knapp

Please read these guidelines for critique

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35 minutes ago, Mark Knapp said:

I thank you for your support. ūüėĀ

Just a (kind) thought...  I am guessing you would garnish even *more* support if you put it (the wording of the guidelines) to a vote.

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17 minutes ago, Bill_729 said:

Just a (kind) thought...  I am guessing you would garnish even *more* support if you put it (the wording of the guidelines) to a vote.

Hmmm. That is a thought. But like SD said, the guidelines are not new, they have been in effect for 18 years, I'm just the lucky guy who wrote them down. I'm not sure that a vote would overturn rules that have been in effect for 18 years.

I did put it to a vote before I posted it, I wrote it and asked the other moderators what they thought and if they would make any changes, they did not.

I'm not sure that having a vote for everything that comes along would be an effective, efficient way to do things. In most organizations it's not done that way. I'm not even sure it's necessary, I have already taken the input of members here and made changes. I'm not all-knowing, and iron-fist ruling. It seems to me that most of the people are for it and it doesn't seem like I'm asking for much. Why is it important for someone to be rude?

That having been said, you, or any body, can put anything they want to a vote if you (or they) want to. Click on "Start a new topic" the click on the "poll" button.

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3 hours ago, Bazzer69 said:

why not say so as long as it’s constructive criticism?

As someone who has been blasted for some of the comments you make (unwarranted AND warranted attacks, in my opinion), you should understand the intent of these guidelines, Barry.

For everyone ... I'm stepping in to support our newest moderator.  He has been nothing but the best of members, and was an enthusiastic "YES" when we decided he'd make a good moderator.  His list of guidelines for critiquing is posted and seconded.  Get used to it or find your most insulting posts deleted.  Done and locked.

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Here's an exchange that occurred not so long ago. I deleted the names because I didn't want to embarrass anybody but it is this exchange and others like it that caused me to write up the "Guidelines"

Member number one- "A little constructive criticism- use a lighter background for dark toned flies. White is usually a good bet for dark flies but not so much for light ones. I like chartreuse or a medium tan.

your tying is getting better!

here are some I tied today, the Uni-Cord I just got is great for deer hair spinning!

Member number two-"His pictures look a lot better than yours"

Member number three-"A little constructive criticism?"

Member number one-"Sure please, fire away"

Member number three-"First, don't offer criticism of any kind unless it's asked for, some folks don't appreciate it.

Second, on your Goddard's pack the spun hair more densely/tighter.  They'll float better and it's easier to trim. Do you trim with a razor blade?"

 

So you see I did not make that part up arbitrarily.

Also, thank you Mike Chell for having my back I appreciate it. I wasn't, however, ready to lock this thread up, I think the discussion is a good one and I'd like to hear what people think. I don't really care for having the last word and locking up a thread. As long as people are respectful I would like it to be open. I'd like to take care of this thread myself, when I need some back-up I know I can count on you. Thank you. ūüėĀ

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2 hours ago, Mark Knapp said:

'm not sure that having a vote for everything that comes along would be an effective, efficient way to do things.

Personally, I would have addressed the 3 or 4 people involved (only), for the sake of efficiency. I don't think there are many "trouble-makers" here, and I don't feel as though this thread enhanced anyone's life (or made anyone a kinder, gentler person--most of us were that way when we started--lol!)  You mentioned there was interest by the owner in increasing members (to more women members say), but if that was part of the purpose of creating the thread, then it seems it was discolored somewhere along the way...  Personally, I'm not crazy about "politics", which, ironically, is probably why I have been as active in this thread as I have been.  That said, I don't make unkind remarks to people, as in the example you provided. Good luck in your new position as moderator! Just as you do, I have other things to do besides keeping this thread going.

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Mark, congratulations on being a moderator.   Well deserved.

I don'tsee anything controversial in what you posted.  From teaching university students and managing many people,  I have learned that even the most well intentioned comments will sometimes offend someone from a different view point or background.   Being nice is fundamental to a working community  Praise should be sincere.  Critique should be honest and well meaning.  There are many gifted tyers on here that I have learned from.

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42 minutes ago, Bill_729 said:

Personally, I would have addressed the 3 or 4 people involved (only), for the sake of efficiency. I don't think there are many "trouble-makers" here, and I don't feel as though this thread enhanced anyone's life (or made anyone a kinder, gentler person--most of us were that way when we started--lol!)  You mentioned there was interest by the owner in increasing members (to more women members say), but if that was part of the purpose of creating the thread, then it seems it was discolored somewhere along the way...  Personally, I'm not crazy about "politics", which, ironically, is probably why I have been as active in this thread as I have been.  That said, I don't make unkind remarks to people, as in the example you provided. Good luck in your new position as moderator! Just as you do, I have other things to do besides keeping this thread going.

To talk to just the two or three individuals in PMs would have been less efficient because none of the rest of the members would have seen it. I would need to PM each member one at a time as the cases came up. Better to talk about it to the whole membership at once.

No, I did not mention that there was interest by the owner, I said there is interest in the membership to see more, newer and female contributors to the site. Ive seen those kinds of comments since I started coming here. Change does not happen by itself, you have to make changes to make change. I'm attempting to.

I started this thread yesterday. That's one day. The kind of change I'm talking about is long term change, change you don't see in a day, you are talking about short term change. I'm thinking it might take months or years to see the change I'm thinking of.

In the mean time, hopefully, maybe, people will be more kind to each other. If not, I still have not wasted my time, people asked me to do this and I did. I made good on what I said I would do.

 

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I went on a 3 day vacation and this happened!

I do have an idea and that is to ask what is the fundamental "purpose" of this bulletin board?

Is it to teach us to become better flytiers. If so, that cannot happen without "criticism" of some sort.

Is it to display our flies?

Is it to share patterns?

Is it something else that I have missed?

I have my own opinion but the "purpose" of my post is to ask for the collective opinion of the members to really think and list in order what they think they WANT to both GIVE and GET from the fellow members.

I don't think it is possible to develop any "rules" of behavior before we know the purpose of this bulletin board. 

 

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1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

I went on a 3 day vacation and this happened!

I do have an idea and that is to ask what is the fundamental "purpose" of this bulletin board?

Is it to teach us to become better flytiers. If so, that cannot happen without "criticism" of some sort.

Is it to display our flies?

Is it to share patterns?

Is it something else that I have missed?

I have my own opinion but the "purpose" of my post is to ask for the collective opinion of the members to really think and list in order what they think they WANT to both GIVE and GET from the fellow members.

I don't think it is possible to develop any "rules" of behavior before we know the purpose of this bulletin board. 

 

I was done with this thread until I saw your post SilverCreek, as it takes this thread/discussion in a whole new direction.¬† First, see what happens when you go on vacation?¬† I think you posed some valid important questions. I joined because I wanted to and still want to become a better tier.¬† I always welcome criticism even if I don't specifically ask. Others I'm sure have different opinions/feelings about that.¬† To reach the goal I just mentioned, my reason for joining, both display and sharing help. When I see¬† a pattern(s) that's something new, different or that has a technique I'm not familiar or competent at I throw a hook in the vise, get a new sharp razor blade and have at it. The classic salmon flies are perfect examples of what I'm trying to explain.¬† Additionally display and sharing are ways to help "enrich" others while at the same time, I hope that some of the flies I post do what other's flies do for me.¬† That's my fundamental purpose of this board. There are others:¬†camaraderie, some banter back and forth, etc.¬† I'm sure everyone's mileage will differ.¬† You ask me, there's one rule¬†of behavior, be polite.¬† How do you answer the questions you posed?¬† Which brings up a new thought. Maybe our brand new Moderator can start a thread about the purpose of the forums from the perspective of why members have joined, what they are trying to get out of the place, etc. ( I know I could probably start the thread, but our new mod needs some more on his plate. To make his bones so to speak.¬†ūüėĀ

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1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

I do have an idea and that is to ask what is the fundamental "purpose" of this bulletin board?

I suppose it depends on who you ask. I think it would not exist at all in the absence of "marketing", so I would call that it's "fundamental purpose". It's like Facebook, but a niche market. That said, every member has his or her own personal reasons for visiting. I enjoy the heavy concentration of fly fishers, and general good humor (for anyone who read the recent "joke of the day": You can't roller skate in a buffalo herd! ūüôā¬† ). ¬† I've got some very good answers to some fly fishing questions too!¬† But after some consideration of your question for at least a few minutes now, my favorite "purpose", which has come rather indirectly, has been the development of social relationships with some others here.

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2 hours ago, SilverCreek said:

I went on a 3 day vacation and this happened!

I do have an idea and that is to ask what is the fundamental "purpose" of this bulletin board?

Is it to teach us to become better flytiers. If so, that cannot happen without "criticism" of some sort.

Is it to display our flies?

Is it to share patterns?

Is it something else that I have missed?

I have my own opinion but the "purpose" of my post is to ask for the collective opinion of the members to really think and list in order what they think they WANT to both GIVE and GET from the fellow members.

I don't think it is possible to develop any "rules" of behavior before we know the purpose of this bulletin board. 

 

People come here for all the reasons you stated. None of them are exclusionary. But, when people come here, they want to enjoy it. Some people were not enjoying it and told me so. We can't make everybody happy, that's a fact, but we can try to do better.

Again, no body said there should be no criticism. Criticism is good and healthy, when it's given in the right way for the right reasons. If given rudely, for the wrong reasons it does nothing but chase people away from here. All I'm saying is, be polite. I'm not doing it for myself. I haven't felt much harsh treatment personally (Except maybe from Barry, and I'm a big boy, I can take it) In fact, I personally have been treated very well here. People asked me to do this.

To answer your question, I come here to become a better tier, to teach, to see what other people are tying and to display what I tie. In that order.

The best we can to is make the world a better place. If more people come here and enjoy it, we have done that.

Thank you for contributing to this thread.

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