Common Cents System

[Guest]

Never realized there exists total explanation of fly rod dynamics.   Never really needed it.  You gotta start with rod/line wt of manufacturer. Experimenting  with different weight lines on the same rods done a lot.   But not sure how static measurements and analysis would ever replace actual casting.   Maybe for the rod building guys....

https://www.common-cents.info/ 

[redietz 0]

It's also useful to determine what line to start out with when you've acquired an unmarked rod, but I've recently heard some criticism of its applicability to cane or glass.

[SilverCreek 0]

7 hours ago, denduke said:

Never realized there exists total explanation of fly rod dynamics.   Never really needed it.  You gotta start with rod/line wt of manufacturer. Experimenting  with different weight lines on the same rods done a lot.   But not sure how static measurements and analysis would ever replace actual casting.   Maybe for the rod building guys....

https://www.common-cents.info/ 

I would say that the CCS is an attempt to quantify the feel of a rod during the cast. In other words, if two rods have the nearly the same metrics on CCS, should they not "feel" the same while casting identical fly lines are identical distances. After all, rod "feel" is what fly fishers seek within the a given line class and I believe rod feel is more than the action and fly line rating.

Jim Green has an interview on Sexy Loops. In it he has some interesting comments on rod "feel." Although he is referencing bamboo rods, his comments apply to all fly rods.

"You see I am an old Bamboo man, I have always had a love for Bamboo. It's amazing when you think about it, you take all these materials, Bamboo, Glass, Graphite in some cases Boron. The most important part of a rod is not what it is made of. What's more important is the action of the rod. If you take a good Bamboo rod with the correct action, they might say it's a Bamboo action, but there is no such thing as a Bamboo action. It might be a Bamboo feel, but not a Bamboo action. The action of a rod is just the way it happens to bend under stress. So you can make a bamboo rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and you can make a glass rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and then a graphite rod, they all are going to cast good you know? Sure one is going to be lighter than the other, of course that's what seems to be a big selling point, people like them light....

The feel is there because it has weight and swing. They call that a Bamboo action, it is not an action, it is a feel. The action like I said before is the way a rod bends. You can take all three: Bamboo, Glass and Graphite, and if they have a good action, they will all cast very well, but Bamboo will feel different because it is heavier. If you want to duplicate the action and feel of a Bamboo rod you have to build it solid, so it will have a different kind of swing to it. "

Jim Green

I do think some information is better than no information but I don't know how CCS can truly quantify the feel of a fly rod. The reason is that CCS does not account for two things. First it does not account for the mass distribution of the rod. Three rods made of bamboo, fiberglass, and very high modulus graphite can have the same CCS rating of Equivalent Rod Number (ERN) and Action Angle (AA) but they will "feel" different when cast.

Secondly, the ERN and AA depend on the rod length. My contention is that if you length a 9 ft rod by 6 inches by making the butt section longer, it will still have the same "feel" and fly line rating because most fly rods bend at the tip and perhaps down to some of the midsection on a 30 ft cast of fly line. However, the increase in rod length changes the ERN and AA and CCS will tell you the rod rating has changed..

[Steeldrifter 0]

I've been using the CCS for years on rods that are unknown rating. It's a good way for the average user to determine the rating of a rod, as some manufactures tend to under rate their rods to make them seem like that are faster, since "fast = good seems" to be the marketing trend for the past decade by many. Feel is a relative term and not what really CCS seeks to determine. Rod line ratings are determined by the weight of the fly line that bends the rod a certain amount (think it's first 30' if memory is correct, but could be wrong can't remember exactly off hand without looking it up) . So CCS seeks to determine that. Feel and AA are different than rating, but the CCS rating gives you a baseline so that you can tell what line the rod will cast and then go from there.

CCS is not the end all to tell how a rod will feel or cast. But it does give you a basic idea especially if the rating on a blank is unknown, or if the CCS falls closer to one line rating than it does the other such as 5.1ERN vs 5.9ERN. Basically it's just a useful tool for rod builders, or for anglers that may come across a rod at a yard sale that is not marked etc etc.

 

 

[SilverCreek 0]

Isn't ERN CCS's version of the fly line rating and AA CCS's version of rod action?

 

[Steeldrifter 0]

Yes but you have to keep in mind action is as relative term to each angler. While AA is a determinable thing, what "feels" one way to one angler, can feel very different to another.  Basically action is one thing that while can be determined on a chart, doesn't always transfer over to real world the same for everyone due to the human aspect I guess would be the best way to put it.

[Philly 0]

It makes rod building sound like quantum physics.  I'm not a professional rod builder.  I've built trolling rods, surf rods and spinning rods for friends, either for the cost of the components or as gifts.   Fly rods I build for myself, though I've built one for my nephew and a couple for my niece and her husband.  I like slow to moderate action rods, so that's what I order in the weight and length I want to build.  Slow to moderate blanks don't seem to be as popular these days.  Building was simple.  Spine rod, then based on a formula in Dale Clemens' book, determine the number of guides I needed.  Epoxy the reel seat in place, lined up with the spine,  slide the fore grip the blank, epoxy it in place.  Again using a formula from the Clemens' book determine the initial spacing of the guides.   Tape the guides in place, take the rod out and test cast it, making adjustments as necessary to increase the casting distance and reduce line slap.  Easier to do with surf rods and spinning rods than a fly rod.  In fact, I have to replace the grip of one my 6 wgts over the winter and I'm going to re-evaluate the placement of the stripper guide and second guide.  I'm getting more line slap than I like on the cast.

I learned a lesson in rod action.  Years ago there was a rod swap on the Flyfish@ list.  Twelve people and the guy running swap picked the blank we were going to use.  We paid for the blank.  Components were our choice.  He sent us an 8' Rainshadow  5 wgt blank.  Didn't mention the action on it.  The names of swappers were picked out of a hat.  The guy I was swapping was Dave Lewis.  Silver, you might remember from the list, he was fairly active on it.  What did he do for living?  He was a rod builder.  He got my nontraditional fly rod and I got a beautiful custom fly rod from him.  Not sure what he did with his.  Maybe hid it in a corner to gather dust or used it as an example of what a fly rod shouldn't look like.  I couldn't wait to try it out.  I took it out and I couldn't cast it worth damn.  It was a fast action rod.  I spent 4 or 5 years casting slow/moderate rod and just couldn't adjust to the action.  After several attempts I gave up on it.  It gathered dust.  Finally, took it to my local fly shop and put it up for sale on consignment.  Got $125 for it.  Dave would have sold that rod for three or four hundred dollars at one of the fly fishing shows he frequented.  Please don't come back and haunt me Dave, for what I did to that beautiful rod.

[SilverCreek 0]

For those of you who don't know of Dave Lewis, he was a well known builder of custom fly rods.

https://fiberglassflyrodders.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63344

Dave passed away about 11 years ago of pancreatic cancer but his web page is still up.

http://www.davelewisflyrods.com/

He was known internationally as well.

https://globalflyfisher.com/staff/dave-lewis-usa

 

[Steeldrifter 0]

wow time flies. I can't believe it was 11 yrs ago. I didn't know Dave personally but being in the industry I knew of him pretty well like most other business builders do.

[skeet3t 0]

Silver Creek, didn't want to quote your whole post here. Had a guy tell me about swing weight in fishing rods. Only time I heard of swing weight was with golf clubs. Care to define swing or swing weight? Thanks.

[cphubert 0]

Really good information, any chance of pinning this to the fly fishing tab? 

[SilverCreek 0]

1 hour ago, skeet3t said:

Silver Creek, didn't want to quote your whole post here. Had a guy tell me about swing weight in fishing rods. Only time I heard of swing weight was with golf clubs. Care to define swing or swing weight? Thanks.

Swing weight has a very specific definition in physics. It is the Moment of Inertia (MOI). We all remember Newton's First Law of Motion = an object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. This is the law that describes inertia.

In fly casting, Moment of Inertia (MOI) represents the inertia resistance of the fly rod to getting it to move/rotate and once it is moving/rotating, the resistance to getting it to stop moving/rotating. So higher MOI/swing weight fly rods take more force/energy to cast.

In simple terms, everything in the universe that has mass resists being moved and when moving, resists being stopped. When we cast a fly rod, we repeatedly alternate moving and stopping the rod from backcast, to forward cast, to backcast to forward cast, etc, etc,

The greater the swing weight of a fly rod, the greater the rod resists being moved and resists being stopped. That resistance adds to the "feel" of the rod and it SLOWS down the reaction of the rod to being moved and being stopped. So as we begin a cast, the greater the swing weight, the slower the reaction of the rod and the lower the swing weight, the faster the reaction of the rod.

Do you see where I am going with this? Rods that are IDENTICAL in static flex profile = rod action, will have a different feel and in fact a different stroke path and stroke length to make identical casts. A longer and slower stroke path is needed for the rod that has a higher moment of inertia. So I think that some of the impression that rod actions are getting faster is due to the cast that rods are getting lighter. Two rods of identical flex patterns but different moments of inertia will feel different.

The rod action rating, fly line rating, and rod power IGNORE the mass distribution along the fly rod. Moment of inertia is critical to rod feel. That is why we obsess about swing weight.

I must have posted this quote by Jim Green in a previous post but I post it here again because he is talking about swing weight when he talks about the "Bamboo feel."

"You see I am an old Bamboo man, I have always had a love for Bamboo. It's amazing when you think about it, you take all these materials, Bamboo, Glass, Graphite in some cases Boron. The most important part of a rod is not what it is made of. What's more important is the action of the rod. If you take a good Bamboo rod with the correct action, they might say it's a Bamboo action, but there is no such thing as a Bamboo action. It might be a Bamboo feel, but not a Bamboo action. The action of a rod is just the way it happens to bend under stress. So you can make a bamboo rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and you can make a glass rod that will bend under stress a certain way, and then a graphite rod, they all are going to cast good you know? Sure one is going to be lighter than the other, of course that's what seems to be a big selling point, people like them light....

The feel is there because it has weight and swing. They call that a Bamboo action, it is not an action, it is a feel. The action like I said before is the way a rod bends. You can take all three: Bamboo, Glass and Graphite, and if they have a good action, they will all cast very well, but Bamboo will feel different because it is heavier. If you want to duplicate the action and feel of a Bamboo rod you have to build it solid, so it will have a different kind of swing to it. "

Jim Green

So Jim Green associates rod "feel" with "fly rod action + mass distribution (swing weight)." I think he is 100% correct. Not only is he correct because he is Jim Green, he is correct because mass is an intimate part of momentum and energy, two key factors in how a fly rod performs and feels.

For the technically minded, there is a complicated method of calculating MOI.

http://www.sexyloops.com/articles/swingweight.shtml

Note that the link above states that MOI is highly dependent on the distribution of the mass and that mass toward the rod tip is much, much more important that mass at the rod base:

"MOI is strongly dependent on mass distribution and distance from the axis of rotation. The dependence on distance from the axis is quadratic, so MOI increases with the square of distance to the axis of rotation. The following will generally be true:

• Long rods will have higher MOI than shorter rods of similar build and/or mass.

• Mass in the tip of the rod is much more important than the mass in the lower part of the rod (reel seat and grip).

• Rods with heavy blanks will have higher MOI than rods with light blanks."

The Yellowstone Angler fly rod shootouts try to account for swing weight. 

Their method is at 3:20 in the video below. They "balance" the assembled fly rod with the rod handle on a scale and place force on the butt end of the rod grip until the rod is level. This is not a true calculation of MOI/swing weight BUT it is a measurement that correlates with swing weight. In my view it is an easy to understand method of measurement that should give consistent results from rod to rod for this type of rod fly evaluation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqJu2X7jWk

In my opinion, it is analogous to the what the Common Cents use of the AA = Action Angle as a measure for rod action. This is also a static measurement analogous to the Common Cents method of determining rod action, the AA = Action Angle. Because the the Yellowstone Anglers substitute measurement for MOI/Swing Weight is a static test, it cannot tell us what the mass of the fly rod is or how fast the rod recovers from the cast.

Editorial comment:

You wrote "Only time I heard of swing weight was with golf clubs." I also had someone write on another blog that swing weight in a fly rod worked the same way a "swing weight" in a baseball bat or a tennis racquet. This is not QUITE true. Although swing weight or MOI is calculated the same way for a golf club, tennis racquet, baseball bat and fly rods; swing weight has a different effect on the performance in the hitting sports vs a sport like fly casting.

When you increase the swing weight of a golf club, tennis racquet, or a baseball bat, the increase in swing weight allows the athlete to hit the ball father since the momentum and energy of the club, racquet, and bat is TRANSFERRED to the ball. It is not so in fly casting. We are NOT hitting a fly line and transferring energy to it - therefore, the momentum or swing weight of the fly rod is not transferred to the fly line. All that matters is how fast and how straight the fly rod can PULL the line and how quickly the fly rod can be STOPPED so the line can clear the rod tip and move on it's own momentum and energy. So greater swing weight is not an advantage and a fly rod with greater swing weight takes more energy and effort to cast.

A fly rod MUST has some swing weight so there the angler can feel the rod bend and a certain amount of "rod feel" or "rod feedback" is necessary for the fly caster to judge what the rod is doing. That is why we overline rods on very short casts. We do it so the rod bends more with a heavier line so we can feel the rod bend and be more accurate on those short casts.

[skeet3t 0]

Thanks.

[robow7 0]

Steeldrifter has it correct in my opinion.  CCS simply offers another piece of useful data on a rod or blank, just like the manufacturer when they subjectively call a rod a 5 wt or 6 wt.  The CCS determination is objective and repeatable and though it still doesn't give you the whole picture, it will allow you to compare one rod or blank to another.  I've been building rods for decades and use it whenever available to give me an idea how fast a rod is likely to be and what line weight range is likely to be appropriate.  I only wish all rod and blank manufacturers like MHX made this information available. 

[SilverCreek 0]

12 hours ago, robow7 said:

Steeldrifter has it correct in my opinion.  CCS simply offers another piece of useful data on a rod or blank, just like the manufacturer when they subjectively call a rod a 5 wt or 6 wt.  The CCS determination is objective and repeatable and though it still doesn't give you the whole picture, it will allow you to compare one rod or blank to another.  I've been building rods for decades and use it whenever available to give me an idea how fast a rod is likely to be and what line weight range is likely to be appropriate.  I only wish all rod and blank manufacturers like MHX made this information available. 

I agree.

For fly lines, a similar concept to CCS is the line taper diagram. You can compare one manufacturer's bass bug taper with another manufacturer's bass bug taper. But there are other factors like what the line is made of and the line coating that will also determine how the line casts, floats or sinks.