Para posts (does size really matter)

[chugbug27 0]

Ok, I can't understand that epigenetics wiki.... I'm semi guessing this is related to learned behaviors that get passed down to children without being taught the behavior? Are they saying that those learned social behaviors get transmitted via cellular changes that are not genetic?  I think I got that right? But how does that get transmitted if not by DNA?

[Gene L 0]

Just for flotation: I wrapped some Parapost on a 12 and 14 hook.  Bare steel.  They both floated fine, so I believe the post will add to the flotation of the fly.  Or am I wrong?

[niveker 0]

I think the point SilverCreek was trying to make is that the post can only provide floatation if it is in the water, not above the water.  So a heavier post, above the water, adds to the weight of the fly.  If the hackle is keeping the fly on the surface, and therefore the post is above the water, at that point the post doesn't provide any floatation.  Of course, once the hackle fails at its job, and the fly sinks, a post made of the correct material and/or treated properly, can add to the floatation of the fly, since it is now in the water. 

At least that's how I understand it.  

[SilverCreek 0]

3 hours ago, chugbug27 said:

Ok, I can't understand that epigenetics wiki.... I'm semi guessing this is related to learned behaviors that get passed down to children without being taught the behavior? Are they saying that those learned social behaviors get transmitted via cellular changes that are not genetic?  I think I got that right? But how does that get transmitted if not by DNA?

DNA is the genetic code in our cells BUT for the DNA to have an effect it has to be EXPRESSED.

A simple example is eye color. Blue eye color is recessive so a blue eyed person has a blue eye gene from the mother and a blue eye gene from the father. But if the child has a blue eye gene and a brown eye gene, their eyes will be brown because brown eye color is dominant over blue. So the blue eye color is not expressed.

So a gene has to be expressed. And if it is expressed, how it is expressed also has an effect on the end result of what we see. How it is expressed and how that person's gene expression is then passed on to his children is epigenetics

So epigenetics is about gene expression BUT also the life experiences of the person. These life experiences can be passed on when the changes are made to the epigenome. For example, it a person has a traumatic experience , the effects of that trauma can change how that person's genetic code is expressed in their children.

Maybe this will help:

https://developingchild.harvard.edu/resources/what-is-epigenetics-and-how-does-it-relate-to-child-development/

[SilverCreek 0]

2 hours ago, niveker said:

I think the point SilverCreek was trying to make is that the post can only provide floatation if it is in the water, not above the water.  So a heavier post, above the water, adds to the weight of the fly.  If the hackle is keeping the fly on the surface, and therefore the post is above the water, at that point the post doesn't provide any floatation.  Of course, once the hackle fails at its job, and the fly sinks, a post made of the correct material and/or treated properly, can add to the floatation of the fly, since it is now in the water. 

At least that's how I understand it.  

Exactly.

Most materials we use as posts are heavier than water so once submerged, heavier than water post material cannot help a fly float.

[Gene L 0]

2 hours ago, niveker said:

I think the point SilverCreek was trying to make is that the post can only provide floatation if it is in the water, not above the water.  So a heavier post, above the water, adds to the weight of the fly.  If the hackle is keeping the fly on the surface, and therefore the post is above the water, at that point the post doesn't provide any floatation.  Of course, once the hackle fails at its job, and the fly sinks, a post made of the correct material and/or treated properly, can add to the floatation of the fly, since it is now in the water. 

At least that's how I understand it.  

He's right.   You're correct too.

[clip 0]

Well shit, is my fly going to work or not? I think I'll go back to big gaudy streamers and deal with the casting pains 

[chugbug27 0]

1 hour ago, SilverCreek said:

the effects of that trauma can change how that person's genetic code is expressed in their children.

This is the part I don't get....

Yet. I'll have to read that article. Thanks silver

[SilverCreek 0]

17 minutes ago, chugbug27 said:

This is the part I don't get....

Yet. I'll have to read that article. Thanks silver

Here is where it has practical experience for fishermen.

We know through experience that wild trout are different that planted trout. That difference is due to epigenetics.

If you take the eggs and sperm of wild trout, fertilize the eggs but raise the trout for a single generation in a hatchery, the offspring of those hatchery raised trout are changed epigenetically and are less able to live in the wild than trout from eggs hatched in the wild.

A single generation of domestication heritably alters the expression of hundreds of genes 

Wild Steelhead Trout from the Hood River

http://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms10676

http://tinyurl.com/hgq64dp

“We find that there are hundreds of genes that are differentially expressed (DE) between the offspring of wild fish (W × W) and of the offspring of hatchery fish (H × H) reared in a common environment. By using reciprocal crosses, we further show that these differences in gene expression cannot be explained as maternal effects, sampling noise, or false discovery. Thus, our data suggest that the very first stages of domestication are characterized by massive, heritable changes to gene expression.”

“Remarkably, we found that there were 723 genes DE between the offspring of wild fish (W × W) and the offspring of first-generation hatchery fish (H × H)”

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_epigenetic_inheritance

'Transgenerational epigenetic inheritance is the transmittance of information from one generation of an organism to the next (e.g., parent–child transmittance) that affects the traits of offspring without alteration of the primary structure of DNA (i.e., the sequence of nucleotides).^[1][2] The less precise term "epigenetic inheritance" may be used to describe both cell–cell and organism–organism information transfer. Although these two levels of epigenetic inheritance are equivalent in unicellular organisms, they may have distinct mechanisms and evolutionary distinctions in multicellular organisms.

Genetically identical mice with different DNA methylation patterns causing kinks in the tail of one but not the other.^[3]

Four general categories of epigenetic modification are known:^[4]

1. self-sustaining metabolic loops, in which a mRNA or protein product of a gene stimulates transcription of the gene; e.g. Wor1 gene in Candida albicans^[5]
2. structural templating in which structures are replicated using a template or scaffold structure on the parent; e.g. the orientation and architecture of cytoskeletal structures, cilia and flagella,^[6] prions, proteins that replicate by changing the structure of normal proteins to match their own^[7]
3. chromatin marks, in which methyl or acetyl groups bind to DNA nucleotides or histones thereby altering gene expression patterns; e.g. Lcyc gene in Linaria vulgaris described below
4. RNA silencing, in which small RNA strands interfere (RNAi) with the transcription of DNA or translation of mRNA; known only from a few studies, mostly in Caenorhabditis elegans^[8]”

[SalarMan 0]

Paralysis by analysis. Give it a rest...IT'S NOT THAT COMPLICATED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!

It's just trout fishing and fly tying for pleasure and fun.

[Heff2 0]

Who knew epigenetics would explain why I release my fish, the ones that hit my flys must be the dumbest ones in the water. Gotta put them back to make sure I can catch the next generation.  

[chugbug27 0]

“ We fish for pleasure; I for Mine, you for yours.” from Jim Leisenring’s Notebooks

[chugbug27 0]

Thanks again Silver, I don't think I'm going to be able to digest the scientific mechanism of it, but I get the general picture. Had been unaware that life experience can actually alter genetic expression. Pretty neat stuff.

As for the parachute post... Personally I like turkey flats -- grey, tan, but mostly white so I can see them. They are light as a feather (lighter than most feathers, even), so the fly suspends on the hackle (not from a floating post), and the post stays above water, which I think is how they were designed to work. 

Just a personal preference though. Many ways to skin this cat.

[SalarMan 0]

First my fly fishing background starting 60+ years ago. I've taken and released countless numbers of trout in multiple states, as well as Canada and England on the Test and the Itchen. Saltwater fish in New Jersey, North & South Carolina. Fresh water and saltwater fish in Florida. A half dozen species or more in the Bahamas and Belize. In all these years and all these places I have NEVER found the need for some of the idiotic, over complicated nonsense I've read in this thread after a simple question about a para post for your flies.

The best advice I can give you is a repeat of what I said before. It really is quite simple. Satisfy yourself, enjoy the sport and the tying. Keep it simple and you will be a better fisherman and tyer for it. Trust me and just ignore 99% of what you read. For the most part it is just a rehashing of the same old stuff from the last 125 years.

George

[niveker 0]

Really?

42 minutes ago, SalarMan said:

the idiotic, over complicated nonsense...

Keep it simple

Aren't you the guy who spends hours tying one fly, posts a photo, and then tells us he still has to 'preen' it.  

The only idiotic nonsense I've read in this thread is by the guy who once again felt the need to boast about his 'fly fishing resume' and then ridiculed us for discussing fly tying methods on a board devoted to discussing fly tying methods.