Para posts (does size really matter)

[niveker 0]

As I said above, I don't fish parachutes hardly ever, because I don't like tying them.  But I'm with Mr. Creek re: an emerger pattern, only I'm partial to a snowshoe emerger, much less fussy than a parachute, easy to see and keep dry.  

 

Sorry for the further derail.  

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Keep derailing I've just begun my dry fly tieing journey so my learning curve is a bit behind but I'll find a pattern that fits both purposes.                                                      "can't" is the ultimate challenge to me so we'll see how it turns out.

[partsman 0]

I would suggest watching some of Tim Neal’s tying videos. His website is best value fly tying, but his videos are Michigan based flies, primarily parachute dries and emergers. While he uses mostly deer belly hair for his parachutes it’s not hard to make the jump to synthetic materials. I also like his style of wrapping the post, and his videos are pretty helpful.

Mike.

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Thanks Mike I'll check them out

[WWKimba 0]

13 hours ago, SilverCreek said:

Height  of floatation of parachute fly depends on 3 main things:

1. The length of the hackle fibers

2. The way the hackle is wound around the post.

3. How the hackle is tied off.

Examine a dry fly hackle feather. You will see that it has a natural curve to the fibers and it has a shiny side and a dull side. The shiny side is convex and the dull side is concave.

When you decide to tie a parachute, you must decide whether you will tie the hackle so that the the tips of the fibers curve down toward the water and extend below the body of the fly (the fly will ride higher and the fly is supported on the tips of the fibers), or whether you will tie the hackle so that the tips of the fibers curve up away from the water (the fly will ride low with the body in the water and the fly supported by the shafts of the fibers, tips curving up and away from the water).

If you want the fly to ride low in the water, tie the hackle so that you rotate the hackle around the post, shine side down and dull side up, tips of the fibers curving away from the water.

If you want the body to ride higher, tie the the hackle so that you will rotate it around the post, shiny side up and dull side down, tips of the fibers curving down below the body of the fly.

You must also decide how to tie off the hackle and this will also determine whether the fly rides lower or higher.

To make the fly ride lower, tie the hackle off at the bottom of the post, below the last wind of hackle. Because the post tie off raises the hackle, the body will sink into the film.

To make the fly ride higher, wind the hackle as low on the post as you can and tie off behind the eye of the hook in traditional position. This lowers the hackle on the post and makes the body of the fly ride high on the film.

By combining these two techniques you can rotate the hackle shiny side down and tie off on the post to get a fly that has its body in the film; or rotate the hackle shiny side up and tie off behind the eye to get a fly that rides high on the film. 

 

You asked about the how "fat" the post should be. Anything that is ABOVE the water adds weight to the fly and makes the fly sink lower in the water. So a fatter post requires more material a fly with an overly fat post will ride lower in the water. 

You forgot #4 - the floatability of the material (it's index to water), poly is lighter than water whereas turkey flats, calf hair/tail and other natural materials are heavier than water.  A fatter poly wing will act as a life vest for the fly and keep it a bit higher in the water.  Also, I normally tie my poly posts using the furled technique - giving the post a bit more diameter.  You tie in the the back of the post and twist the yarn and let it furl down and attach the front of the furled post against the back halve of the post.  No thread dam needed. The post is stiffer thus making easier to thread wrap the post plus think of the difference of tying around an open umbrella vs. a closed one.  at the very end you cut the top of the furled post to it's proper length.  Fluff if you need to.

Kim

[SilverCreek 0]

9 hours ago, WWKimba said:

You forgot #4 - the floatability of the material (it's index to water), poly is lighter than water whereas turkey flats, calf hair/tail and other natural materials are heavier than water.  A fatter poly wing will act as a life vest for the fly and keep it a bit higher in the water.  Also, I normally tie my poly posts using the furled technique - giving the post a bit more diameter.  You tie in the the back of the post and twist the yarn and let it furl down and attach the front of the furled post against the back halve of the post.  No thread dam needed. The post is stiffer thus making easier to thread wrap the post plus think of the difference of tying around an open umbrella vs. a closed one.  at the very end you cut the top of the furled post to it's proper length.  Fluff if you need to.

Kim

I wrote "Anything that is ABOVE the water adds weight to the fly and makes the fly sink lower in the water. So a fatter post requires more material a fly with an overly fat post will ride lower in the water. "

Maybe you misunderstood me.

ANY mass you add to the post results a lower riding fly. It does not matter if the material is "lighter than water." It still has mass (weight) so a fatter poly wing has more mass than a thinner poly wing. Therefore the fly will not a float as high because a large wing adds more weight above the water.

Anything ABOVE the water cannot act as a life vest.

Anybody with a physics degree please chime in to confirm what I have written.

[WWKimba 0]

3 hours ago, SilverCreek said:

I wrote "Anything that is ABOVE the water adds weight to the fly and makes the fly sink lower in the water. So a fatter post requires more material a fly with an overly fat post will ride lower in the water. "

Maybe you misunderstood me.

ANY mass you add to the post results a lower riding fly. It does not matter if the material is "lighter than water." It still has mass (weight) so a fatter poly wing has more mass than a thinner poly wing. Therefore the fly will not a float as high because a large wing adds more weight above the water.

Anything ABOVE the water cannot act as a life vest.

Anybody with a physics degree please chime in to confirm what I have written.

My point is that the mass density is less than using other (natural) materials and that the poly "lifejacket" will limit the fly dipping into the water to as great a degree.  AKA there may be more material but since it's lighter it's effect on pushing the fly into the water is lessoned  AND the poly that is pushed into the water also limits the depth of the sinkage. Think of a cork and a an equal sized piece of maple, each is lighter than water but the cork will need to offset less water so it floats higher.   Otherwise, use a hook that floats and I haven't seen those yet.

Kim

[chugbug27 0]

Now I'm gonna have to get one of these....

It calculates density of porous and oddly shaped materials by pressurizing a chamber with inert gas, to accurately measure volume. Cool. They say to call "to request a quote"... Maybe another day.

[clip 0]

After unpacking all this information here goes.   My original purpose for this fly was something in a 12 or 14 for those times size doesn't matter to the fish as much, and something with the hook lower to the surface hoping for more hookups than my high floater also wanted horizontal  thinking about dry/dry and dry dropper with good flotation  I'll get emerger styles eventually 

Starting with a thin post in the neighborhood of the hookeye size additionally some UV viagra to stiffen things up, hackel wrapped top to bottom hackle fibers pointed down ( layers up and back down optional)   thread wrapped and finished on the post to sink down a bit more with hackle fiber tail and thread or dubbed body.

Any suggestions otherwise welcomed 

[SalarMan 0]

I must admit I have to chuckle a bit at what is going on here. It seems as though the topic is suffering from over analyzation.  We are talking about something to attract a fish with the brain the size of a pea 😂 😂😂    Just tie the fly to suit your taste, your eye and go fishing.

[Poopdeck 0]

1 hour ago, SalarMan said:

I must admit I have to chuckle a bit at what is going on here. It seems as though the topic is suffering from over analyzation.  We are talking about something to attract a fish with the brain the size of a pea 😂 😂😂    Just tie the fly to suit your taste, your eye and go fishing.

I was thinking the same thing. Tie the post as big as you need to see it how you will be fishing it.  All this minutia about floating higher/lower, hackle up/down has no bearing on catching. I wouldn’t put UV glue on the post cause I like my post to flare so I can see it better. 

[SilverCreek 0]

2 hours ago, SalarMan said:

I must admit I have to chuckle a bit at what is going on here. It seems as though the topic is suffering from over analyzation.  We are talking about something to attract a fish with the brain the size of a pea 😂 😂😂    Just tie the fly to suit your taste, your eye and go fishing.

What a fly fisher is trying to do in the most difficult situation is to fool a trout that is feeding selectively. If a fly fools a selectively feeding fish, it follows that the fly will fool a less selective fish.

Since I tie my own flies, I want them to tie them to fool the selective fish. So how the fly "sits" on the meniscus is important when fish are selective and I tie my flies to present the profile I want in the water layer I want.

Brain size has little to do with selective feeding. It is a based on Operant Conditioning, Operant conditioning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia as first described by B. F. Skinner. The fish is rewarded when it feeds on an item that is food and if there is enough of this particular item, the fish becomes conditioned to feed only on that food. That conditioning is what we call selectivity.

Even organism without a brain can "learn" as this experiment revealed

"For the first time, scientists have demonstrated that an organism devoid of a nervous system is capable of learning. Biologists have succeeded in showing that a single-celled organism, the protist, is capable of a type of learning called habituation. This discovery throws light on the origins of learning ability during evolution, even before the appearance of a nervous system and brain. It may also raise questions as to the learning capacities of other extremely simple organisms such as viruses and bacteria."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160427081533.htm

 

[flytire 0]

fly tyers sure have a way at making things difficult 🙃

 

[SalarMan 0]

To quote the Cowardly Lion..."Ain't it the truth" 
After 60+ years fly fishing for trout I've learned I'm smarter than they are...I think 🤪😁

[SilverCreek 0]

Not only can fish "learn" via operant conditioning but they can pass that behavior to their offspring via epigenetics inheritance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/index.php?threads/what-the-heck-is-epigenetics-complex-science.502273/#post1047017