Jonas Winslo 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 I was tying up some Green Butt Skunks and when I started my first one I realized that I didn't have any red hackle that I could use for the tail. Instead of making the 1 hr journey when I get my stuff just for some red hackle I instead used black as the tail. It seems like I do this regularly for patterns that I find and I don't have the supplies built up enough so I can follow receipes. So I rarely come out with a fly that "matches" the original and I was wondering if you guys cosider it important to follow receipe list closely. Usually as long as I can get a fly to come out similar then I'm happy. Maybe I'm missing something and if I followed particular patterns more closely I would have more success out on the water Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Druce 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Story of my life dude… I would say following instructions exactly isn’t always important. In fact a large majority of my patterns are off takes on originals. For instants last year I started using the black ghost streamer with grizzly hackle instead and it turned out to be an awesome slayer. I almost never have exactly what the instructions call for so I sub in things and it mostly ends positive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
perchjerker 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Remember! The fish do NOT read our pattern books!! Cheers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamcaster4639 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 I do it all the time. Most of the time on purpose. Experimenting is all part of the fun of tying. Who knows what you can come up with. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikechell 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Instructions and recipes? who needs recipes? Actually, I try to follow the directions, sometimes I get something that looks like the picture. Sometimes I get something I'd be afraid of if I saw it under the couch. If you get something YOU like, then you've done well. If you are looking for a specific action or float reaction, etc., then it might be more important to follow the directions more closely. If you are enjoying yourself, then you are doing it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crackaig 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 The question that sheds most light on this is, "why do we tie the flies we tie?". Most people would answer "to catch fish". That's fine, and a good, in fact the only real test of any changes you make is, does it improve catch rates? I tie flies for sale, and as I often say, I've never had a fish pay me for a fly. If the customer wants a specific pattern then that's what I have to give them. Even when I know I have better patterns for the same job. (Though I will often slip a couple of extras of my patterns in with their order, its amazing how many times an order for my patterns results). Similarly if you take part in the various tying competitions you will have to produce a fly to the laid down pattern. Over the years I have produced lots of sets of framed flies. One particular one I did charted the history of the Greenwell's Glory. Many people didn't recognise the fly as it was originally tied. I've never come across anyone fishing the original tying, despite many people saying "I'm using a Greenwell's." This doesn't surprise me as you will not find the original winging material (hen blackbird) in any fly tying supplier in here the UK. It would be illegal to sell it. The most famous British fly ever, then, is almost never tied to the original pattern. It isn't only materials that we alter. The original Soldier Palmer had 5 or 6 turns of hackle on the body. If you look in my fly box you'll find the ones I fish with have 20+ turns of hackle. I suspect had the earliest tiers had the hackles I have available theirs would resemble the ones I now tie. There are no rules about this, the only thing I think is important is to show respect to the the originator of a good pattern by not calling something significantly different by the original name. Cheers, C. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Druce 0 Report post Posted August 17, 2012 Remember! The fish do NOT read our pattern books!! Cheers. they dont? thank god! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Bob LeMay 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2012 Here's one other minor factor when tying with red hackle (saddles or neck...) to keep in mind. Many classic saltwater (or freshwater bass) patterns are in a combination of red and white (usually the red end of things is the collar...). Dyed red feathers may be one of the least color fast materials around. A red and white fly just doesn't stay that way for long once it's wet. Bad enough that the red fades but the white materials begin to turn a light shade of pink.... Whenever I can I use pink or fl. pink instead of red for that red/white pattern. In use the white actually stays white since the dyed pink end of things is very color fast compared to red... Here are a few samples of that pink/white color scheme... Tight lines Bob LeMay (954)435-5666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tidewaterfly 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2012 I started tying in 1966, and didn't always have the materials that a pattern specified, so I also improvised. To add some more history to what some of the others have already said, keep in mind that the Green Butt Skunk was devised many years ago, at a time when many patterns had red hackle tails, particularly wet fly patterns, and the Skunks are over sized wet flies. It would be hard to say whether that was due to the red tail being a trigger that enticed bites, or more likely simply a matter of following a design that was more or less traditional. If you take a look at early wet flies, and many streamer patterns, there were many that had red tails, or red throats incorporated into the pattern. There may have been purpose to this, but that doesn't mean it was necessary. Some early Salmon flies also had red tails. I recall reading in one of the books written by Joe Bates, Jr, either his Salmon Flies book or his Streamers book, where he mentioned that fly designs changed as anglers moved from Europe to North America, and many feather wing patterns were revised into hair wings, simply because the materials used on the originals were not available. Yet, the revised & modified flies still caught plenty of fish. This example follows what Crackaig was stating about the origins of the Greenwell. Patterns change & are changed for various reasons, and sometimes it's to improve them, while with others it's because the specified material is not available. Do what you need to do. If it wasn't for the change, we would not likely have all the great patterns we do! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Derington 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2012 Tying with sudstitutes are perfectly acceptable but sometomes fish DO key in on the "hot spots" of pattern being tied, so in this case< anything red would be acceptable. I completely agree with all comments, i do however try and hold true to pattern if I can, lets see some of those flies you tied up Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bad fish rising 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2012 pheasant crest or tippet would have been a great substitute you see alot of NWP steelhead flies & atlantic salmon flies made with pheasant tails Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Mel Simpson 0 Report post Posted August 18, 2012 What would you call the fly if you used orange for the butt? If the black tail became your preferred tail color wouldn't you call it a Black Tailed Green Butt Skunk. The only thing that matters is the name otherwise I suppose you can change it anyway you need to or want to. Mel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bruce Derington 0 Report post Posted August 19, 2012 What would you call the fly if you used orange for the butt? If the black tail became your preferred tail color wouldn't you call it a Black Tailed Green Butt Skunk. The only thing that matters is the name otherwise I suppose you can change it anyway you need to or want to. Mel A Green Butt variant? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tidewaterfly 0 Report post Posted August 19, 2012 Actually the Green Butt is a variation of the Skunk pattern, making a Green Butt Skunk. Red Butt is another popular variation. I've also seen them tied with a hot pink butt. There are other variations too. So, IMO Capt Mel would not be correct with the name of the variation he has suggested. Instead more appropriately I believe it would be a Black Tailed, Orange Butt "Skunk". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Capt Mel Simpson 0 Report post Posted August 19, 2012 My point was that only the name changes, not how the fly works. Actually I grew up fishing the Umpqua, Deschutes and other Pacific Northwest rivers in the 60's, so I am quit famailar with the Skunk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites