multiple half hitches = bad idea

[mikechell 0]

After reading a few posts lately where half hitches were mentioned, I was reminded of an issue with using multiple half hitches in a row. Like this:

 

 

Try this, and you'll see the problem right away. Done with rope, on a broom handle, it is clear that only a single half hitch actually works, if tied in a row. As soon as you tighten the second one, the first one slips and loosens.

This is what happened as soon as I released my hold on the tag end.

 

You can see that the first four hitches slipped backwards and loosened up significantly.

 

If you do multiple half hitches, you must progressively pull the tag end farther and farther around the circumference of the hook shank.

The same four half hitches truly pulled tight, completed one full rotation of the handle.

 

 

To properly do multiple half hitches, you should pull each one tight approximately 90 degrees farther around the hook.

[feathers5 0]

Never knew that.

[SilverCreek 0]

That experiment is really interesting. And I think you bring up an important problem if the experimental findings are confirmed when performed with fly tying thread. I do have several theoretical questions about the experiment design.

 

The rope used in the experiment maintains a round cross section even when compressed by the half hitch. Also the half hitches are made on the wood rather than on a base of rope which has been wrapped on the broom handle. Finally the rope is not waxed at all.

 

I wonder if the half hitches would loosen when tied with something that simulates a FLAT fly tying thread rather than a twisted bonded tying thread. The half hitches are usually made not on the bare hook but on a thread base, and finally I also wonder a rope simulating a waxed thread would hold better.

 

You can see when tying thread it wrapped around a hook, they do seem to flatten somewhat

 

 

Regardless, I use a whip finish because I think it better than a half hitch.

 

BTW, my friend Gary Borger does not use a half hitch. He uses multiple double hitches.

 

http://www.garyborger.com/flies-and-fly-tying/the-double-hitch/

[mikechell 0]

I believe the holding power of the half hitch relies on the direction of the tag end. It wouldn't matter what kind of thread, rope or material is used. The second half hitch must be pulled to continue the pull on the first one. If the "knots" are pulled from the same direction, the first knot will slide backward.

I think it's less noticeable at the thread sizes we're tying, but it's still happening.

 

Another way to verify this. With one half hitch, unwrap the thread. The half hitch will continue to "back up" with the thread until you get to another knot or other block. If you tighten the second knot in line with the first, the first knot will back up. So, two half hitches might back up enough to properly tighten, but a third or fourth knot will probably stop backing up through the previous knots.

[rotaryflytyingdotcom 0]

Great tip on the half-hitch. So easy to offset the knots 90-degrees. This might be the answer to something I've wondered about for a long time - why do some half-hitches hold and some not hold. Like SilverCreek I normally use a Whip-Finish but certainly half-hitches are still a knot I often tie.

 

SilverCreek - great shot of the threads. Are the "bumps" of thread all the same number of wraps and the same finish knot?

[BattenkillBum 0]

I have found that the thread head outlasts the body of the fly anyway. My flies just get a whip finish and good to go. On a side note, mabe flat dental floss would be a more accurate inspection? Just a thought.

[SilverCreek 0]

 

SilverCreek - great shot of the threads. Are the "bumps" of thread all the same number of wraps and the same finish knot?

 

I got the photo from a post by PhilA on the Wisc FF about tying threads. Each bump has 40 wraps.

[Crackaig 0]

Good demonstration Mike. It may not carry the full weight of scientific experimentation under controlled conditions, but it makes the point "Bight the bullet and learn to whip finish".

 

Silver's photo shows something else as well. The four bumps nearest the eye are all very similar in size, yet ,according the the thread sizing, the threads get progressively smaller. Each additional "0" represents a reduction in size of 50%. A 14/0 thread, therefore, is claiming to be 1/4 the size of 12/0. The 16/0 is claiming to be 1/64th the size of 12/0. Yet 40 turns of it produces a bump of similar size. It isn't an accurate measure by any means, but it does show the sizing to be a joke. It seems like thread sizing is based on "think of a number and add /0".

 

Cheers,

C.

[flytire 0]

30+ years of finishing off flies with half hitches and never had a problem ( i do cinch them tight after each hitch)

 

the thousands of fish ive caught never seemed to care

[ditz2 0]

My only comment is that for many years of tying I almost never used anything but half hitches to finish a fly head. I usually used 3 half hitches and then a good coat of SH or other cheap nail polish. I can only remember 2 flies ever coming untied while on the water. I still use both half hitches and sometimes whip finish on fly heads. It just depends on my mood. when I first taught my grand daughter to tie I just had her put some C/A on the thread and put a couple more wraps on her craft foam spiders. No knot at all. Tying can be an art as seen here but it is not rocket science.

[Randyflycaster 0]

"To properly do multiple half hitches, you should pull each one tight approximately 90 degrees farther around the hook."

 

I'm not exactly sure what this means. Please explain.

 

I think Chris Helm uses three half-hitches, but he does it all at once, making three thread wraps on a half-hitch tool.

 

Randy

[mikechell 0]

Randy ... first of all, Helm is doing a whip finish on the half hitch tool by over wrapping the tag end multiple times.

 

Here's a simple diagram of what I mean.

 

 

 

Since the first half hitch is usually pulled towards you, the the second would be pulled up, the third pulled away, etc. This will give you a very secure series of overlaps.

 

 

 

Of course, as has been stated, if your using sealant on top of the threads, it probably doesn't matter how you tighten the half hitches.

[FlyFishin'Jam 0]

Interesting thread! Got me thinking i should learn a whip finish which i never have but like others my larger patterns usually get head cement, ccg hydro, then nail polish over. The teeny trout ones just a coat of head cement. Still never had an issue but it is interesting, i notice some threads half hitch better than others, the slippery gsp types seem to not hitch as well. I often use half hitches while tying a pattern to reverse the thread e.g tying the far side wing on a dee fly.

[Jaydub 0]

Randy ... first of all, Helm is doing a whip finish on the half hitch tool by over wrapping the tag end multiple times.

 

That is neither a whip finish nor a series of half hitches. Try it with the rope and broomstick and see.

[SilverCreek 0]

Good demonstration Mike. It may not carry the full weight of scientific experimentation under controlled conditions, but it makes the point "Bight the bullet and learn to whip finish".

 

Silver's photo shows something else as well. The four bumps nearest the eye are all very similar in size, yet ,according the the thread sizing, the threads get progressively smaller. Each additional "0" represents a reduction in size of 50%. A 14/0 thread, therefore, is claiming to be 1/4 the size of 12/0. The 16/0 is claiming to be 1/64th the size of 12/0. Yet 40 turns of it produces a bump of similar size. It isn't an accurate measure by any means, but it does show the sizing to be a joke. It seems like thread sizing is based on "think of a number and add /0".

 

Cheers,

C.

 

 

Aha! You have discovered the secret of convincing fly tiers that your thread is thinner and stronger than the competitions.

 

Market your thread as a higher "aught" size and fly tiers will flock to it. They think it is thinner but measured by denier, it is actually the same amount of thread with the same breaking strength as another brand's lower "aught" size of the same material.

 

For the most part, the denier and the material will determine the breaking strength of tying thread with a few exceptions. The "aught" is "fraught" with deception.

 

"A good example of the misuse of the “aught” system is Gordon Griffith 14/0 Sheer thread. This thread is acutally a 72 denier thread, but the aught rating would suggest it is much smaller than other threads in the 70 denier category. The use of the 14/0 rating was designed to mislead the unsuspecting fly tier. Another clue is that the breaking strength when test by Bill Merg was 10 ounces. I obtained the actual denier rating from a representative of the late Gordon Griffith’s company who contacted the manufacturer for the denier rating on all of the threads that they sold.

 

Another good example of how confusing the “aught” rating can be is a comparison of Gudebrod’s 10/0 polyester thread, Bennechi’s 10/0 thread. The denier of Gudebrod 10/0 is 45, and Bennechi 10/0 is 120. The aught system does not allow an apples to apples comparison. Using denier does provide a good comparison between threads."

http://whitetailflytieing.com/thread/